Rolling Music Theory Thread

This came about because of:
https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=105686

Aw, I remember Steve from the emusictheory forum.

I found some other posts on another thread where a guy mentioned his Royal Conservatory textbooks and I thought it might be you.

Also came upon mention of the Neapolitan 6th, if you have time to elucidate that as well.

On the Delcamp board? I think I did post there once or twice at one point; not sure if I discussed RCM books there. They're used by virtually everyone in Canada who studies classical music tbf.

Neapolitan 6th = a major triad built on bII, in first inversion. Most commonly used in minor keys. Functions as a pre-dominant; a chromatic substitute for ii (or iio6), m/l.

e.g. Bb/D in the key of Am. As it is spelled D-F-Bb, you can see how close it is to both iv (Dm) and iio6 (Bdim/D).

Thanks. m/l?

Yeah, there was no reason to qualify that. It's a chromatic alteration of or substitute for the supertonic triad.

Here's a functional progression with good voice-leading: Am (voiced 0-x-2-1-0 on strings 5 to 1) - Dm (0-2-3-1 on strings 4 to 1) - Bb/D (0-3-3-1 on strings 4 to 1) - E7 (2-1-3-0 on strings 4 to 1) - Am (voiced 0-x-2-1-0 on strings 5 to 1). In Roman numerals, that's Am: i-iv-N6-V7-i. You can both how smoothly it follows iv and how well it resolves to V7: the lowered ^2 falls by the interval of a diminished third to the raised ^7.

Or maybe that which we now call Ionian used to be called Lydian.

― The Great Atomic Power Ballad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, September 7, 2018 5:33 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is basically correct. in Ancient Greek music theory, the Lydian diatonic scale is more or less equivalent to today's Ionian mode.

https://www.amazon.com/Ptolemy-Harmonics-Translation-Commentary-Bibliotheca/dp/9004115919

I was fortunate to be able to check this out of my college library for an extended period of time. I wish it were cheaper; if I ever have $$$ I'll buy a copy. It's pretty fascinating stuff!

Thanks, Sund4r. I can certainly see the voice leading with my eye, but it still sounds a little, um, interesting when I try to play if

Play it

What is it that sounds off?

One of the most famous examples of the N6 chord is in the second half of m. 3 of the Moonlight Sonata: http://www.musictheoryexamples.com/neapolitan/N6j.html
There's another good example in m. 8 here: http://www.musictheoryexamples.com/neapolitan/N6h.html .
Really, any of the 'straightforward examples' here should work: http://www.musictheoryexamples.com/neapolitan.html

It doesn’t sound off, I’m just not used to listening to that particular sequence of changes

Would it be right to say that the progression from the minor iv chord to the Neapolitan to the dominant chord basically features a chromatic of A to Bb to B? That this is the main thing that's going on? That moving up to Bb suggests that you continue up to B and voila, there's your dominant chord?

basically features a chromatic MOVEMENT of A to Bb to B

No, as the supertonic is lowered in the Neapolitan (Bb instead of B in this example), it needs to resolve downwards, usually to the raised leading note (G#), not upwards to the diatonoc supertonic (B).

*diatonic

Some theorists would say the Bb is actually resolving to A (the tonic) via G#, which is probably more accurate. The key principle is that altered notes resolve in the direction of their alteration.

I just played it again and, sure enough, I wanted the Bb to go down to the G#.

Right on

Was there a thread somewhere about chord progressions that feel like an endless, unresolving loop? I have heard these referred to as “revolving door chord progressions”

That discussion got kicked off when fgti wrote an article about “Get Lucky,” iirc. Thought it might have been on this thread.

Ah, can see Sund4r cut and pasted some of the discussion from another thread here in 2014. Think that other thread is the one you are looking for.

That particular discussion on the Worst Music Writing Thread, looks like, but having trouble loading and linking to the starting point right now. Perhaps there were some other threads as well with discussions of similar topics.

The discussion I am thinking of started here: OK, is this the worst piece of music writing ever?
although the original link doesn't work anymore.

So I will put a fresh link here: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2014/03/daft_punk_s_get_lucky_explained_using_music_theory.html

I don't know that changing the key really makes things easier for the lay reader to understand

Fixed Do vs. movable Do, the most endless and tedious debate ever

The first time I read a piece of music described as "cyclical" it was about PiL's "Albatross" and I got really into the idea of chord progressions that work like ouroboroses. My favourite of all of these remains "In September" ('tis the season) and the way it only fleetingly alights on the I-chord and otherwise creates an aural effect of an endless and exciting Mario Kart track

I read an interesting discussion of cyclical chords and structures in a book called, believe it or not, What to Listen for in Rock: A Stylistic Analysis, by Ken Stephenson. Believe I may have posted something about it upthread.

So here's a Q, and I have an answer and an argument for it but I'm curious what others say:

What key is Trenchtown Rock in? Is it in (a) G (b) C or (c) switches between G and C?

Is this a variant on the “Sweet Home Alabama”/“Werewolves of London” conundrum?

in a way, but I think there's a solution to this one

Listening to a Youtube video, C feels like the tonic to me on first listen/playthrough. Although you do have G on strong bars in the verse, the melodic movement feels like it's outlining movement from ^5-^1 in C, with resolution on C. The chorus seems really clearly in C to me, where you have a I-V-IV progression in C, with C in the harmony and melody on strong bars and on the title line. The movement to Am in the bridge makes sense to me as movement to vi.

Yeah, I got C too, and I got t that from the melodic movement in the verse -- on "thing" ("one good thing about music") he sings an F natural over the G chord, which pulls toward C

Trenchtown Rock is in C. The "One good thing about music" line follows the chords V - II (maj) - IV - I. The "verses" could be argued that they're in a-minor.

We're taught in school that in minor keys, the 6th and 7th notes of the scale are variable-- can be raised and lowered. In major keys, the 4th and 7th notes of the scale can be raised and lowered respectively, and frequently are. The effects of these adjustments create what I describe as "tonal ambiguity", but are frequently overzealously discussed as perhaps implying "modes" or "keys the song isn't actually in". In the case of "Sweet Home Alabama", I disagree with anybody who suggests the chord progression is V - IV - I (even the composers themselves) as the melody clearly functions as if it is within a I - bVII - IV progression.

The raised-fourth often misleads listeners (including myself) into believing that the song is in a different key-- historically, a II (maj) chord is a well-worn trick, a "secondary dominant" (i.e. a V in the key of V). It's a wonderful sound. I think of the raised-fourth as the "sound of the mystical".

One of my favourite instances of a raised-fourth are in Grizzly Bear's "Two Weeks", where the verses imply "Lydian" mode-- (not actually Lydian mode to my ears, but a play on what I call "skyscraper fifths", when you stack fifths upward: C - G - D - A - E - B - F#, and the resultant chords that are created-- it's the backing vocals "whoa oh oh" that imply these stacked fifths-- tough to describe in text, easy to demonstrate on a piano). The raised fourth is hammered home in the lead vocal: "I told you I would stay," which dumps into a lovely natural-fourth IV chord that begins the verse, where the fourths are consistently lowered.

The BEST instance, though, like, favourite moment ever, is in "This Guy's In Love With You" (Bacharach/David). (Assuming the song is in C), the verses have some harmonic adventures, but mostly with the flattening of specific pitches:

I - IV - IV - bVII (amazing little duck to the bVII there)
I - IV - III (!) - vi (that's a secondary dominant to the vi chord... III - vi in "C-major" is V - i in "a-minor")

Then, fuck a duck, but the root of vi ("a-minor") becomes a Bb 4 2 (conservatory spelling, a Bb-natural7-over-A in jazz-speak I guess)

Which in turn goes to a IV (F) into a iv (f-minor)-- again, classic! (this is "don't let me be the last to know" or whatever)

Then a nice extended cadence with some suspensions into the chorus ("My hands are shaking, don't let my heart keep breaking" etc. whatever the words are)

And then the chorus, best thing ever: I - IV ("I need your love" sprinkle sprinkle sprinkle)-- same shit as the beginning to the verses, melodically too, but with added Liberace.

Again: I - IV ("I want your love")

And then the clouds part and the vocals hit that raised-fourth hits: "Say you're in love". But! The raised-fourth isn't in the chords yet. It goes I - vi7 (!!) - II7 (!) - V - V7 The raised-fourth "in" hits the third of the secondary dominant before the bass moves down to reform the vi7 as a II7 ("A" moves down to "D", and the "F#" takes on meaning as the leading-tone to a cadence in the key of "G").

Suddenly what we thought was so stable is not stable at all. Mystical sound of the raised-fourth! Herb Alpert has a moment of fantasy that the woman he's singing to is, in fact, in love with him-- a different world than this one-- a world where we're in the key of G, not the key of C-- but this moment is fleeting-- the V turns to V7 (which contains the un-raised fourth, an "F", which decisively puts us back in the key of "C")-- the fantasy is over-- "if not, I'll just die" Herb sings-- the literal chords of this song are telling us that this is not a song about triumphant love requited, but a song about love unrequited.

Anyway "Trenchtown Rock" is in C. Debating whether or not it's in C or G is basically just asking ourselves, "Are the 7ths lowered? or are the 4ths raised?" It really comes down to the larger structure of the song, and how the melody is finding its cadence. But yeah: C.

I think that first part of the song is in G mixolydian. The D chord does not sound like a borrowed chord, it sounds like a dominant.

Or maybe I shouldn't call it mixolydian with the D major chord in there. I just think G very much feels like the tonic, so G with a bVII chord. The melodic shape Sund4r mentions could be thought to outline the move to the IV chord instead of outlining the tonic.

It strikes me that if you're going to say it's in C because of the larger structure of the song, then you should also say that the part that seems to be in A minor is also in C.

I would probably do that too, actually, although I wouldn't say you were wrong to analyse A minor tonality there. I would feel differently if there were a clear cadence in A minor.

xp I suppose it is possible, but I still disagree. The "feel no pain" cadence is so textbook plagal. The way that the bg vocals come in for that cadence drives home the point, for me

But it's interesting... the idea that the chord progression on the verses might be I - V - bVII - IV (ie. the song is in G) seems to me to have more precedent than the idea that it's V - II(maj) - IV - I (ie. the song is in C). I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head but I - V - bVII - IV is a very familiar chord progression. It'd be interesting to compare the way the melody functions between "Trenchtown Rock" and another song that is more decisively in (a theoretical) G.

There was a song on the tip of my tongue for like last five minutes and now I'm realizing it's "Bone Machine" by Pixies and that's i - V - bVII - IV (i.e. the song is in a minor key)

Ha, I just listened to and sang/played "Sweet Home Alabama" and heard the tonic as D clear as day during the verses and choruses. I think I probably argued for G upthread.

xp I suppose it is possible, but I still disagree. The "feel no pain" cadence is so textbook plagal. The way that the bg vocals come in for that cadence drives home the point, for me

Yeah. A secondary point but the second line of the first verse also starts on a high C.

Yeah. I was flipping through my mental repository of songs to try and think of a song that had a similar/same chord progression that also began on a I with the melody on the root

And for some reason all I could think of was fucking "Clocks"

The one good thing about Coldplay is when it hits you feel no shame about whatever crap you're calling "music" and putting out into the world

Lol

How about “Lay Lady Lay?”

Oh, I forgot - that one's I-iii-bVII-ii. Close, though!

RIO