happy to hear the reddit thread is not badstill think it's v weird to describe this list as neo liberal
― niels, Thursday, 2 August 2018 15:13 (five years ago) link
also d40 what's the joke pls
― niels, Thursday, 2 August 2018 15:14 (five years ago) link
xpost it is “weird” and makes zero sense but I would ignore it
― i’m still stanning (morrisp), Thursday, 2 August 2018 15:21 (five years ago) link
discussion piece between 2 of the writer contributors to the list(intro to it below)
As the list took shape, it became impossible not to notice that the songs in this canon share a common backbone. Many of the songs, and more namely the song's creators, owe their catchy, joyous, triumphant, sexy, strong, aching, resilient ethos to black, Latin and Afro Caribbean musical roots. From streaming to radio, the influence of Latin, Caribbean and R&B music is apparent across all modern genres in the new millennium.
To untangle this common thread, NPR Music's Stefanie Fernández and Sidney Madden charted the work of women of color on this list and examined the ways agency and identity have become central in breaking down pop music's barriers.
https://www.npr.org/2018/08/01/634184379/reclaiming-the-rhyme-how-black-women-and-latinas-have-reshaped-pop-music
― curmudgeon, Thursday, 2 August 2018 16:02 (five years ago) link
They followed in the footsteps of those who could not choose: Selena Quintanilla, Gloria Estefan, Jenni Rivera, Celia Cruz, and so many others.
FTR, I interviewed Jenni Rivera once and she said she would never want to record in English. That if she ever did, it would be an album of old doo-wop songs and love ballads like you'd hear on Art Laboe's radio show, but she had zero interest in crossing over to a pop audience.
― grawlix (unperson), Thursday, 2 August 2018 16:27 (five years ago) link
Also, both these women are bad, clumsy writers who really could have used an editor to teach them how not to sound like marketing executives.
― grawlix (unperson), Thursday, 2 August 2018 16:30 (five years ago) link
and with that
https://i.imgur.com/zGHQb4O.gif?2
― 5th Ward Weeaboo (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 2 August 2018 16:50 (five years ago) link
What type of brain disease would I need where I get mad at hypothetical Reddit posts that I invent in my head
probably a very similar one to the sort that would make you get mad at hypothetical ILX posters or movie viewers or readers or music listeners or bacon eaters that you invent in your head
― 16, 35, DCP, Go! (sic), Thursday, 2 August 2018 17:58 (five years ago) link
x-post to Unperson--Fernandez does not sound like a "marketing executive" here :
The mainstreaming and whitewashing of reggaeton, a genre born from working class black Panamanians (like La Atrevida) in the late 1980s and pioneered in the 1990s by listmaker Ivy Queen (No. 60 with "Quiero Bailar"), by white or light-skinned Latin pop artists has facilitated the pop transformation of Afro-Caribbean genres to the point where they are barely recognizable. In the early 2000s, genres shaped and fundamentally conceived from poverty and racism like reggaeton and soca were still dismissed as classless and vulgar; the vestiges of this thinking can still be seen in the perceived vulgarity of Latin trap artists like Bad Bunny and the new wave of reguetoneras like Karol G, Natti Natasha and Anitta who seem to have been left behind by the success of their peers more palatable to the American market.
She also acknowledges that "There are no reggae or soca songs on the list..."
― curmudgeon, Thursday, 2 August 2018 18:16 (five years ago) link
Fine, but it's still bad and clumsy writing, based on phony premises, starting (in the excerpt you quoted) with the fact that Ivy Queen is herself light-skinned. We could also talk about the fact that Gloria Estefan had multiple Top 40 English-language hits, and she and her husband Emilio managed Shakira's move into pop. These writers are painting a portrait of victimization and marginalization that just doesn't match the facts. I mean, when you're gonna call Gloria fucking Estefan someone who couldn't choose her own career moves, you really need to stop and rethink. And you know this stuff, probably even better than I do.
― grawlix (unperson), Thursday, 2 August 2018 18:40 (five years ago) link
― niels, Thursday, August 2, 2018 10:14 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
the idea that that selection somehow adequately represents or even comprehends R&B's musical contributions this decade is laughable
also you missed Jazmine Sullivan, a rare counterexample to what i'm actually talking about
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, 2 August 2018 21:58 (five years ago) link
I didn't say that selection "adequately represents" 21st century R&B
you wrote that "the list unquestionably, IMO, and drastically underrates R&B" and I wanted to make the point that the top 20 was full of R&B-informed songs (I didn't "miss" Sullivan, she's at #137 and I was quoting the top 20)
but I'm no expert on contemporary R&B would love to see your list of 20 representative tracks
― niels, Friday, 3 August 2018 06:35 (five years ago) link
Ok, the idea that it’s noteworthy a lot of music would be “r&b-informed” is basically useless—pop music as a whole is r&b infomed
But this canon clearly pushes against the r&b canon, or treats it w oblivious disdain & there’s no real analysis of what’s lost or missing
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Friday, 3 August 2018 08:59 (five years ago) link
that was indeed carefully phrased, I'd say Sharon Jones and Amy Winehouse is straight up (revivalist) rhythm and blues, stuff like Solange, Beyoncé and Alicia Keys comfortably contemporary R&B
list has Ciara, King, Jhene Aiko, Tweet, Jill Scott, Kali Uchis, India Arie, Blu Cantrell, Sza but maybe you feel it's missing Cassie, Dawn Richard, Kehlani, Kelela, Tinashe?
Anyway I'm really not looking for an argument here, I just thought the criticism seemed perhaps a bit out of proportion with the offensiveness of the list. I think it'd be great if you would share your idea for a 21st century female rnb canon, maybe there isn't really one?
― niels, Friday, 3 August 2018 11:25 (five years ago) link
One last time on my pet peeve--
Sorry Faye-Ann Lyons, you don't rate
plus no afropop/afrobeats (programmed beat African music) artists-- Sorry Yemi Alade, you don't rate.
― curmudgeon, Friday, 3 August 2018 12:41 (five years ago) link
― niels, Friday, August 3, 2018 6:25 AM (ten hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i have to provide my own canon to argue this ignores large portions of the actual R&B canon?
how about destiny's child, brandy, missy, amerie, keyshia cole, mariah carey, mary j blige, erykah badu, aaliyah, keri hilson, jennifer hudson, janet, fantasia, teedra moses, ashanti ... im sure im missing people
the interpretation of "R&B" as portrayed by the list feels limited by critical acclaim & a lack of investment in / immersion in R&B discourse imo...saying "but kali uchis" is a strike against yr point. even your examples of who should have made it hews very close to crit-friendly singing fare (surprised you didn't say FKA twigs?) ignoring the post-church music soul/R&B wing in favor of the kind of stuff that appeals to critics & brits lol
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Friday, 3 August 2018 21:47 (five years ago) link
im not counting their 'premiered in the 00s' excused since they break it arbitrarily & because the genre is literally driven by women in their 30s/40s consumer wise so it seems absurd
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Friday, 3 August 2018 21:48 (five years ago) link
K Michelle too, surely? Or are you only talking 00’s here?
― breastcrawl, Saturday, 4 August 2018 00:42 (five years ago) link
Not looking at the list I know it’s missing Chavela Vargas and therefore not worth my time.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Saturday, 4 August 2018 00:50 (five years ago) link
Kudos for Selena in the top 20 though if that’s the list that was copy pasted above.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Saturday, 4 August 2018 00:51 (five years ago) link
Actually that list is pretty decent.
Still no Chavela Vargas makes me sad. I suspect it’s also missing many afro+latin singers but that could be a separate list.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Saturday, 4 August 2018 00:54 (five years ago) link
1000% k Michelle
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 4 August 2018 01:02 (five years ago) link
Sevyn streeter
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 4 August 2018 01:03 (five years ago) link
“Motivation” by kelly Rowland >>>>
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 4 August 2018 01:12 (five years ago) link
Hell yeah
― breastcrawl, Saturday, 4 August 2018 01:20 (five years ago) link
amerie and fka both on the listyou don't have to argue anything, I accept that this list is missing a lot of rnb I just want to know what it is because I like the genremotivation is definitely missing!
― niels, Saturday, 4 August 2018 01:22 (five years ago) link
I missed Amerie (I don’t consider Fka r&b)
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 4 August 2018 01:35 (five years ago) link
reggaeton is easily more popular than any other form of latin music in america right now
― dyl, Saturday, 4 August 2018 02:04 (five years ago) link
it's great to see I'm With Her finally getting the credit they deserve.
― billstevejim, Saturday, 4 August 2018 02:36 (five years ago) link