WHOCHURCH: The Chris Chibnall era

bob holmes' first two scripts for doctor who were absolute garbage. he got better.

his sax work on 'baker street' still the best thing he ever did tho

I think my primary feeling about this nu-Who era, sight unseen, is that Jodie Whittaker is very brave to take on a role that will likely be, to some extent, a thankless pain in the ass.

I think that's making some really rong assumptions. She has worked with Chibnall before, at length, so it's not as if she doesn't know what it is to have him as a showrunner / director / boss for multiple seasons. And being the first female Doctor is hardly going to be thankless. The worthless gremlins we've been discussing are not the only fans out there.

Oh, I know. But that's pretty much entirely who I was referring to. That they make up a tiny portion of the fanbase doesn't, unfortunately, put a damper on their volume or vehemence. Just thinking about the array of women who've had to deal with ridiculous amounts of 'fan' abuse in recent years because they had the temerity to challenge a bunch of thumbsuckers' deadlocked notions of nerd culture.

Hot take - the kids won't care at all and she'll be well-recieved, and whatever a load of miserable gits in their fifties and above think doesn't actually matter to the BBC.

Obviously it all depends on the scripts, by the last Capaldi season in particular it felt like the fun had just drained out of it and the whole show was treading water. If Chibnall can bring the magic and energy back then he'll be fine.

My one real disappointment about the end of Moffat's tenure is our all-too-brief acquaintance with Bill.

whatever a load of miserable gits in their fifties

I have a feeling that teen and 20-something alt-right idiots are going to be a persistent thorn (based on looking at reddit I guess).

I predict that whochurch will render the previous two doctors all but forgettable.

!! Tom what have you loved in Chibnall's scripts and series so much as to inspire this boldness?

1. if moffat was a better writer than he was a showrunner, it stands to reason that there's a possibility chibnall will be a better showrunner than he was a writer.

he's been showrunning for over a decade and the best he's managed was "well I liked the first year until the ending was dumb and bad"

2. looking back on the history of the show, even the most loathed showrunner (take a bow, john nathan-turner) managed to put together four solid seasons of the show.

hard disagree (not least because the "showrunner" position doesn't really show up in Dr Who until Cartmel: a guy who collaborates with writers, builds themes and character arcs, has a vision for the direction of the show etc - JNT actively seems to step back into using his budgetary/organising skills in service of Cartmel's work at that point [presumably in great relief after his experience with Saward and the Bakers]. Letts/Dicks and Hinchcliffe/Holmes totally count as double-headed teams doing a showrunner-type job tho.)

3. the leaked clip is pretty swell. not much to go on, admittedly, but show me any random 42 seconds of "the twin dilemma" and i don't think i'd be able to say the same.

I watched Twin Dilemma yesterday (on Twitch) for the first time since transmission, and it remarkably managed to be exactly as bad as I remembered. (I haven't watched the leaked clip.)

4. bob holmes' first two scripts for doctor who were absolute garbage. he got better.

Krotons was okay. It >>>>>>>>>> Cyberwoman.

5. at least he's not mark gatiss.

now THERE's someone whose TV Who has gotten better on a fairly straight line. and fair play to him for saying he didn't think he was suited for the role.



by the last Capaldi season in particular it felt like the fun had just drained out of it and the whole show was treading water.

this is crazytalk, Bill + Capaldi were fun squared. (The middle chunk of scripts went desperately off the rails tho)

Two Doctors is starting on Twitch in a few minutes if anyone wants to see The Youth react to Grey Trout and Jamie

yeah I really liked Bill and Capaldi. It's too bad she didn't stay on to form a bit of bridge continuity but obv that doesn't always happen. I do wonder how much of the pre-chibnall world we'll see once he takes over. Will he resist the temptation to revisit Rose? Will we ever see the cool Silurian and Jenny again?

1. if moffat was a better writer than he was a showrunner, it stands to reason that there's a possibility chibnall will be a better showrunner than he was a writer.

he's been showrunning for over a decade and the best he's managed was "well I liked the first year until the ending was dumb and bad"

― kelp, clam and carrion (sic)

i haven't seen any of his other shows. i've never seen "press gang" either.

i'm keeping the bill/capaldi season in reserve for the point where i get sick to death of chibnall

I haven't either obv, except for a handful of the Torchwoods. Law & Order UK didn't exactly set the world on fire though

(seen most of Moffat's work except Chalk and the final season of Coupling, seen nearly everything RTD's done since 2003 and like all of it better than all but two eps of his Dr Who)

If you guys have forgotten how to get excited about things without third-guessing yourselves into planning for how to deal with the “inevitable” dissatisfaction, maybe you don’t actually love the thing you’re trying to feel excited about.

Jesus.

!! Tom what have you loved in Chibnall's scripts and series so much as to inspire this boldness?

I liked Broadchurch and I really liked Whittaker in it. You?

no, I've found his Who episodes to often be the dullest, most-conscribed stories of their seasons, and stood up after Cyberwoman to ask my Who-watching group if we all wanted to watch literally anything else rather than another episode ever. and Matt Smith is the Best Doctor Ever for mine.


maybe you don’t actually love the thing you’re trying to feel excited about.

dude I watched BOTH The Twin Dilemma and Attack Of The Cybermen on Twitch yesterday (for the first time since...<checks broadwcast> June 1984 and December 1985 respectively)!

... and The Dying Days is my current when-I'm-waiting-somewhere Kindle re-read, and when I do my ironing I'm currently working through the donate-to-US-anti-gun-charity audio commentaries on The War Games that were done by Andrew Smith and Jamie Mathieson and Paul Cornell and Jenny Colgan and Peter Harness and Nick Abadzis and Philip Hinchcliffe and Steven Moffat &al...

apparently there are some people complaining about the new composer because they're worried he'll sound too "black"

The fuck is wrong with these absolute cunts.

The actor who played Bill was excellent, but I think she was undermined by the mostly mediocre scripts of season 10, and by a lack of character development. I mean, besides the (admittedly well done) Cyberman stuff in the finale, her one defining character moment was giving the Monks her consent to save the Doctor (even though he told Bill not to do it), which lead to the Earth being occupied and innocent people dying. And her guilt over this was never explored or even mentioned.

So yeah, it would've been nice if they could've kept Bill and allowed her to grow more as a character. Clara was a pretty bland character during the Smith era too, it was only during the Capaldi seasons she became more interesting than your standard Plucky Girl Sidekick.

apparently there are some people complaining about the new composer because they're worried he'll sound too "black"

The fuck is wrong with these absolute cunts.

― chap

they're racists

I haven't either obv, except for a handful of the Torchwoods. Law & Order UK didn't exactly set the world on fire though

― kelp, clam and carrion (sic)

oh wait i did see "law and order uk" and i thought it was really hacky, for some reason he failed to transmute the vision of dick wolf into compelling british television

If you guys have forgotten how to get excited about things without third-guessing yourselves into planning for how to deal with the “inevitable” dissatisfaction, maybe you don’t actually love the thing you’re trying to feel excited about.

― El Tomboto

this statement is silly and so wrong that it's not even worth trying to unpack why

TBF, it's true for me inasmuch as I neither love nor am excited about Who generally. It's fun but I'm not a superfan by any means.

But Broadchurch was real fucken bad so I'm less excited than usual.

I look forward to new Dr Who I’m sorry you all don’t I guess

Im going to watch a few episodes before I decide it’s terrible or good. I really want it to be good; Whittaker was my favorite part of Broadchurch and I’m extremely interested in her take on the Doctor.

This had been my favorite entertainment franchise since I was seven and the only time I ever came close to outright hating it was 10/Rose, so odds are I’ll think this is great and spend a lot of time rolling my eyes at perceived whining.

I like Who a lot more now that I have let go of being A Fan of Doctor Who. Looking very much forward to new season with Whittaker, I dug Broadchurch lots

i lied in my last post, the stupid thing is suggesting that the only way to be a True Fan is to be an uncritical fan. i've seen "the twin dilemma", i can't fucking do that and i don't understand anybody who can. also this board is the last place on earth i'd expect uncritical fandom of _anything_ to hold sway.

"But Broadchurch was real fucken bad so I'm less excited than usual."

the first and third series are great. I agree the second one was fucken bad.

All I saw was the first. It may have been fine for the most part but the incredibly stupid, completely out of left field 'let's say........Moe' reveal at the end blanketed everything that came before with a shower of bullshit.

well then I don't recommend watching series 2. or maybe I do! because it's garbage.

3 was pretty good though

the only way to be a True Fan is to be an uncritical fan

yeah that sounds exactly like something I would say

the mystery was irrelevant, it's all about the music and long shots of the seaside town and knitted brows

yeah I mean the mystery is terrible. it's all about that and also all about "how many more ways can Miller and Hardy screw this up?"

and the weather balloons

the only way to be a True Fan is to be an uncritical fan

Tombot notwithstanding, I doubt you'd find anyone here who would approach any show this way.

I just don’t understand bemoaning seasons of a show that haven’t even aired yet. I guess sic’s reasoning makes some sense in that he’s hated all of chibnall’s writing on the show to date.

i have a certain amount of trepidation about the guy who wrote the best episodes of the show i like being replaced by the guy who wrote the worst episodes of the show i like

i'm not prejudging, but i'm hedging my bets a little

Agreed. Or, I wouldn't say Chibnall's episodes aren't the worst of the series, if you compare them the to actively gringe-worthy stuff, like the alien TV announcer in the 1950s, or the Moon giving birth, or the magical tree fairies saving Earth from solar flares, they're just perfectly mediocre. Watchable, but there's no new ideas, nothing other DW writers hadn't episodes hadn't done better. So what I'm fearing his showrunner arcs will be like that too.

the guy who hired a woman to play the Doctor is definitely unlikely to bring any new ideas to the table, it's a fact

I guess sic’s reasoning makes some sense in that he’s hated all of chibnall’s writing on the show to date

iirc nobody else in this thread or any other Who thread has given any other reason for taking a cautious attitude? I'm going to watch and be delighted if it's good, which seems a better way to enjoy than to go in expecting it's going to be great

Anyway, it's definitely wild to have spent the last seven years being shouted at by 70% of Doctor Who thread posters for enjoying Doctor Who, or for plainly explaining things that happened onscreen that people weren't looking at (without indicating my own enjoyment or disappointment), and now be charged with being part of a nebulous pack of anti-fun Dr Who grouches

the guy who hired a woman to play the Doctor is definitely unlikely to bring any new ideas to the table, it's a fact

― El Tomboto

i was just reading some old doctor who news clippings and jnt was talking about casting a woman as the doctor in 1981

i don't think he was seriously considering it, but in that light it's hard to call casting a woman to play the doctor a "new idea"

Actually doing so rather than hinting it to goose ratings is anew idea.

xpost: the brand new idea that the producer of Doctor Who repeatedly teased in the press from 1981 to 1987, and that the original creator of Doctor Who formally advised the BBC to do in 1985 when the show was moribund, and that was done by four fully-produced shot-on-film American fan films from 1984 to 1988, and was done on BBC television by Steven Moffat in 1997, and has been repeatedly set up in dialogue from 2010 to 2014, then shown as possible onscreen in 2014 and 2015 (and had been implicitly established as possible and not unusual onscreen on 23/10/1976)

All credit to Chibnall for doing it and I expect her to be a delight! but it's really not an example of him bringing a new idea his first new idea to Doctor Who ever

i don't think he was seriously considering it

it was Tom who actually said to a press conference that he thought it could be time for a woman, JNT ran with it for years but obviously never considered it

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFJaHbYWAAAw1Rt.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFJaCXNXgAA2y9G.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFJZ-DwW0AI4z_Y.jpg

"I've spoken to various people, some them ladies"

I don't recall ever yelling at you for enjoying Dr Who but there's probably some episode I hated that you liked along the way somewhere.

I'm excited for new Who, you guys are all "well we'll see I guess grumble grumble" because of vague Chibnall beefs - I just don't see why the orthodoxy of grumble needs to reign supreme. Me, DJP and f. hazel OTM, the rest of y'all can carry on I suppose.

I don't think it's a radical or unreasonable position to take a cautious approach if you don't like the incoming showrunner's previous work! And that this position can be independent of the new Doctor herself.

That said, "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship" and "The Power of Three" are fantastic! The rest of his Who eps are forgettable though.

most who eps are forgettable except that one with the completely horrifying creatures

damn, ratings absolutely tanked last season! chibnall hasn't written a who episode since 2012? that's more time than bob holmes took off between "kroll" and "androzani". strange.