How (post) punk is post-punk, really?

One more fan of that Chrisma track. I knew them from "Nothing To Do With The Dog" in the 80s, but didn't know they dated back to '76.

It was definitely a shame that the Who almost didn't form when Keith Moon forgot how to resolve German sixth chords. Good thing Townshend helped him with his fugal exposition on the extra credit assignment.

Um, what?

Or should I say “wot?”

I said “Sund4r”
I said “wot?”

Was a (probably delayed) reaction to:

Punk music gave license that you didn't need a degree in music theory to be in a band.

There is no shortage of musicians who decided upon hearing the Sex Pistols or the like that punk meant they didn't have to be a virtuoso to get up on stage and play.

This can't be a controversial statement.

Didn't the Sex Pistols cover Substitute?

Indeed they did.

Pete Townshend definitely did have classical influences and aspirations though: https://petetownshend.net/musicals/music-of-the-spheres-the-orchestral-music-of-pete-townshend. John Entwistle’s parents, both musicians, gave him and sent him to music lessons. He played French horn in a youth orchestra and then was playing some kind of wind instrument in a trad jazz band. Moonie, as well as The Ox. was a certain kind of chops monster, and all four of them were able to do those four part Beach Boys harmonies on occasion ( The Ivy League only sang backing vocals on “I Can’t Explain”). So, instrument smashing and attitude aside, The Who don’t quite qualify as proto-punks.

Wait I just watched video of "Substitute" from Monterey Pop and I take it back about the singing harmony.

Sweet, punks vs. mods redux.

http://britpopnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/mods-vs-rockers.jpg

There is no shortage of musicians who decided upon hearing the Sex Pistols or the like that punk meant they didn't have to be a virtuoso to get up on stage and play.

This can't be a controversial statement.

I wasn't even arguing this as much as I thought it was funny to take literally the idea that a degree in music theory was a requirement to form a band pre-punk. "Classical aspirations" and "parents sent him to music lessons" are not exactly the same thing as "having a degree in music theory" ftr.

B-b-but was it in fact meant literally?

I wonder what Harlan Ellison RIP™ would have had to say about this issue.

my takeaway from ‘rip it up and start again’ was that post punk wasn’t really a thing at the time and the narrative was revisionistically pieced together after new wave by critics tracing influences backward (proto new wave??) through all the different weirdo scenes. so i agree with the thesis of the thread, also mix in the OP looks killer

B-b-but was it in fact meant literally?

Probably not

I'm old enough to remember the era and I don't recall people talking about "post-punk". I've always assumed that was a naming after the fact. "New wave" these days seems to mean late seventies skinny tie pop-rock, like Joe Jackson or something, but my feeling that is that it was a broader term back then and encompassed what we now call post-punk. In this interview for instance Ian Curtis includes Bauhaus as one of the "new wave" bands he likes: http://www.post-punk.com/happy-birthday-58th-birthday-ian-curtis/

Also Bowie referencing the "new wave boys" on Scary Monsters - around the time he was also referencing bands like Joy Division in interviews

and recruiting the blitz kids for video

Not sure if this is the place to put this, but 15 years after I started making the '1981' post-punk box set, I've finally tackled 1980:

https://musicophilia.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/folder.jpg?w=1024

https://musicophilia.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/Post-Punk-1980_GIF_Medium.gif?w=624&zoom=2

Eight themed mixes, 147 artists, plus a "sampler" mix--streaming or download these days, alas no physical boxes anymore. Artists include:

A Certain Ratio · Animals & Men · The Associates · Au Pairs · Bauhaus · The Beat · The Blackouts · Blondie · Blancmange · David Bowie · Bow Wow Wow · The Boys Next Door · Glenn Branca · The Breakers · Buggles · Buzzcocks · The Cars · Chris Carter · Alex Chilton · Chrome · Colored Minds · The Comsat Angels · Elvis Costello & The Attractions · The Cramps · The Cure · Dalek I · Delta 5 · Deutsch Amerikanische Freundshaftt · Devo · The Diagram Brothers · Din a Testbild · Doctor Mix & The Remix · Dome · Dow Jones & The Industrials · The Durutti Column · Essendon Airport · Factrix · Fad Gadget · Family Fodder · The Feelies · Final Program · Fire Engines · Flowers · Flying Lizard · Free Agents · Friction · John Foxx · Peter Gabriel · Gang of Four · Girls At Our Best · The Gist · The Go-Go’s · The Gordons · Half Japanese · The Human League · Husker Du · Ike Yard · Implog · Indoor LifeIn Camera · INXS · The Jam · Japan · Grace Jones · Josef K · Joy Division · Kid Creole & The Coconuts · Killing Joke · Krisma · Lizard · Ludus · Magazine · Manicured Noise · Marilyn · Martha & The Muffins · Material · Minutemen · Missing Persons · Mission of Burma · Mr. Partridge · Moderne · The Mo-Dettes · The Monchrome Set · Pauline Murray & The Invisible Girls · MX-80 Sound · Nasmak · Neonbabies · New Musik · Colin Newman · Gary Numan · Iggy Pop · The Only Ones · Orange Juice · Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark · Our Daughter’s Wedding · Pink Military · Pink Section · Plastics · Polyrock · Poly Styrene · The Pop Group · Pretenders · Prince · Psychedelic Furs · Pylon · Reptile Ranch · Martin Rev · Reversible Cords · Rinder & Lewis · The Room · Roxy Music · Ryuichi Sakamoto · The Selecter · Simple Minds · Siouxsie & The Banshees · The Slits · Smokey · Sods · Soft Cell · The Sound · The Specials · Squeeze · Richard Strange · The Stranglers · Swell Maps · Talking Heads · Teardrop Explodes · Television Personalities · Telex · This Heat · Tuxedomoon · Ultravox · Units · Urban Verbs · Les Vampyrettes · The Vapors · Alan Vega · Virgin Prunes · Visage · Scott WIlk & The Wall · Wipers · Xex · XTC · Yello · Y Pants · Yellow Magic Orchestra · Young Marble Giants

Check it out, spread the word, and buy lots or records from it! Thanks all!

https://musicophilia.wordpress.com/2019/01/01/post-punk-1980-box-set/

Thanks! Your obsessions seems to match mine - but you've got better energy and drive.

Btw it took me a while to work out how to stream each of the mixes on Mixcoud, rather than download the whole caboodle, but I may be behind the curve in my online skills.

Huh. I never would have guessed that Love Will Tear Us Apart would fade so seamlessly into We Got The Beat until I heard it.
Loving these mixes.

Vivien Goldman of late 70s early 80s postpunk fame, plus a critic, author and Professor, has a new album Next Is Now

New wave argument upthread is fun because you can continue on the proto/punk/post confusion onward into new wave/synthpop/etc. (and probably infinity) - when I was a kid it was too late for 1980 Blondie or Talking Heads to still be getting radio play but Tears for Fears and Depeche Mode would and the DJs were calling them new wave.

I somehow missed the news about the Vivien Goldman so thanks for that. Enjoying it.

Yea, I enjoy some of it , though am not hearing anything as good as Launderette yet

no, no Private Armies either, but her voice is still as adorable as ever and I will purchase. Substitute remained in my head afterwards.

Have learned that the melodies and lyrics are largely all Vivien Goldman but she let Youth create the tracks and they then collaborated to finalize them.

nobody really knows what's what when the thing's happening. even 'punk' was hardly ever 'punk.' there was the magazine 'punk' and a greasy trashy sort of scene that sort of vaguely accreted to it, and the scene was very arty and art-adjacent from the get go, improvised-ramshackle and yet exquisitely presented. I mean, forget prog, Ramones s/t was the ultimate make-believe concept album of the 70s.

And if you look at the LA scene, the bands playing in Chinatown or at the Masque (Middle Class, X) you can't slice that sucker into punk/post-punk no matter how hard you try. 'Punk' in SoCal really didn't get sonically and aesthetically codified until *after* 'punk', when it shifted away from Hollywood weirdos of all kinds and became a boys-only thing in the suburbs and beach towns, giving us hardcore.