How (post) punk is post-punk, really?

I assume it was a reference to post-modernism

When did certain types of music start to be called post-punk? ? As you say, 'postmodern' cultural artefacts exist well before the 20th-Century, never mind the 1970s, but the current meaning of the term really only became common currency in the 1980s w/ Baudrillard etc (Lyotard's Postmodern Condition, which is maybe the nearest thing to a foundational text for po-mo, was only translated into English in 1984).

So I'm sceptical of your metanarrative here Tim :-)

Well I did say I assume! :)

According to Wikipedia the origin is late 70s UK rock press but there's some dispute as to who coined it, claimants including Jane Suck, Jon Savage and Paul Morley. Each of whom would have likely been aware of the crit-theory coinage, post-structuralism and so on. Anyway it's quite possible that there's no relationship, my point about worrying too much about the literal meaning of generic names stands. Turns out the fauvists weren't actually wild beasts at all, etc.

Certainly wouldn't be surprised if Morley had called Dollar, say, 'postmodern' - all surface no meaning, signifiers but no signified, a pastiche of pop etc. Seems a more appropriate fit with the theory than eg This Heat, whose music is obviously deeply committed to meaning, the 'truth', and so on.

Hi,

I'd say that Post-Punk started with Magazine.

Ta.

Ward, I was trying to get at the fashion in genre-naming (or tendency-naming) rather than talking about the content of the actual art. But I agree with what you say.

post-punk is everything in this book

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WN54CDA7L._SX316_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

My intereest in this thread and the mix wasn't to denigrate punk, so apologies if that's what came across. Rather, I wanted to propose that post-punk is more significantly related to a sustained tradition that pre-dates punk, and to see how some of the music that always made me think that sounds together, if it holds up as a "post-punk-like" listening experience.

I hear Pere Ubu's "Heart of Darkness" or Kraftwerks "Antenna" or certainly Rixy's "For Your Pleasure" or Talking Heads '75 demos and it's the sounds of post-punk, well before 70s punk. The name thing isn't a big deal obviously, but it is a curiosity since I can't think of a less accurate genre name that stuck so firmly.

I guess "art rock" comes as close as any commonly used umbrella term?

For the record, I'm a big-tent definer of post-punk, and Simon Reynold's books (along with my '1981' box that came out concurrently) captures most of what it means to me. Which might explain why I see it as such a tendrilled beast and not particularly indebted to the boundry-defining tendencies of punk.

Also:

aesthetics, the ethos, the production values, etc. of post-punk (by which I mean Family Fodder as much as Joy Division, Raincoats as much as Gang of Four) were already being expressed almost fully-formed as early as the late 60s.

You could argue that the ethos, production values etc of punk were being expressed as early as the mid-60s - so maybe we're all good! I am being facetious obv but if Brian Eno's post-punk then the Sonics or whoever are punk.

My point being (again) that genre-naming is a matter of shorthand, drawing an always-imaginary line around stuff you want to talk about, rather than anything that will convey a literal truth or a clear artistic divide..

pere ubu def feels the most like pre punk post punk of any band

Proof that postpunk game before punk is that “Dairymaid’s Lament” comes six tracks earlier than “The Jewels of the Madonna.”

(That would have been a good joke if I had proofread it!)

I will still stick with new wave. Side one, track one of the mix posted is peak new wave aesthetic, several months before punk was even relevant.

So, yeah: new wave is what it is.

camberwell now is so post-punk they're prog (QUIET SUN). PiL is so post-punk their lead guitarist roadied for steve howe, and their bass player emulated holger czukay

xp I'm fine with you dying on that hill of wrongness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_wave_music

New wave differs from other movements with ties to first-wave punk as it displays characteristics common to pop music, rather than the more "artsy" post-punk.

ha whenever i think of the term "new wave" i think of this book that i got in 10th grade 82 and it informed a relatively isolated kid in CT about british music i had little idea about.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41FWiAnsavL._BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
all i really remember from it was him sorta laughing at pop presence of the police and the excellence of the beat.

PiL is so post-punk their lead guitarist roadied for steve howe

... the guy that formed the Clash with Mick Jones.

didn't lydon sell acid outside of hawkwind shows?

Even Boiled Beef & Carrots Steve Jones and Paul Cook called their pre-Sex Pistols band after a Roxy Music track, so Punkers all be about Chuck Berry & Buddy Holly and Post Punkers they love the art-rock doesn't quite wash.

van der graaf generator were punk as fuck. just as lydon

Always seems like stylized skinny tie, weird haircut etc wearing stuff. Which is not what I would be looking for at the time or since.

― Stevolende, Wednesday, June 20, 2018

yeah Sid Vicious and Exene Cervenka sure dressed in top formal wear on stage

Soft machine were pretty punk no

Captain Sensible used to follow Soft Machine all over the UK, wearing his Mike Ratledge trademark long leather coat.

"punk" is an attitude, pre- and post-. technical virtuosity defies the dumbing down demanded by late stage capitalism. simon reynolds is full of shit

i think that palmer book also used the phrase "when i see something new, i'll wave"

Next phase, new wave, dance craze, anyways
It's still rock and roll to me

hey stooges, let's pretend rick wakeman didn't play with david bowie and black sabbath, lou reed's dad wasn't a millionaire accountant. the incredible string band isn't the proto-Dead Kennedys, baby you're a portmanteau

the incredible string band isn't the proto-Dead Kennedys

You lost me here tbh.

Funnily enough though, Mike Heron was training to be an accountant before he got mixed up with ISB.

New wave differs from other movements with ties to first-wave punk as it displays characteristics common to pop music, rather than the more "artsy" post-punk.

Is exactly what I said here:

This is the sort of nonsense that I hate. "Post-punk = valid artistic statement, new wave = sell out music." Meanwhile, the term new wave is what was used at the time to describe everyone from the Ramones to Devo to the Human League. "Post-punk", as near as I can tell, is a term that was created after the fact to segregate the quote en quote "COOL, GOOD BANDS" from the quote en quote "CRAP, POP BANDS." It's an elitist form of labeling that relies on how cool a band is in retrospect and it's an unproductive, regressive train of thought.

Elitist revisionism is fine, though.

bright light city gonna set my soul, it's gonna set my soul on fire
there are 5000 spirits or the layers of the onion
damn things nearly hardly flapped

and the russians nibbling everywhere
the chessboard's filling up with red
we make more profits when we blow up their heads

now what big business wants big business gets
it wants a war. but let the white dove sing
of the body of life, of the lover

the term new wave is what was used at the time to describe everyone from the Ramones to Devo to the Human League

to Tom Petty, Joe Jackson, and Cheap Trick

... in the USA.

i've been hurt and i don't care

side 2 my war

take it easy baby. let it last all night
she said, "oh baby don't feel so down"
she's lost control again

has anybody mentioned how fucking awesome part 1 of this collection is? i didn't know cluster or chrisma and damn.

Soundslike is the god of mixtapes

that Chrisma record rules, I just got it a few months ago

side 2 my war

― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, June 20, 2018 11:26 AM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

well it's a stairway
to
heav
en
well i was a born

There are no new waves, there is only the ocean - JLG

I like post punk as a label. It is fitting name for a genre. Last month I only listened to post punk. It tends to be more industrial than art punk.

To clarify I didn't listen to any modern music called post-punk. There is no post-punk in the last 20-30 years (anyone that tells you differently is wrong). . Just late 70's and 80's.

Captain Sensible used to follow Soft Machine all over the UK, wearing his Mike Ratledge trademark long leather coat.

wot?

Lol

Captain Sensible spearheaded a music-and-dialogue concept album after all.

To clarify I didn't listen to any modern music called post-punk. There is no post-punk in the last 20-30 years (anyone that tells you differently is wrong). . Just late 70's and 80's.

― He said captain, I said wot (FlopsyDuck), Wednesday, June 20, 2018 11:59 PM (yesterday)

I wouldn't have believed it, either, till I heard the proof. I can't say I love it as much as the peak '78-'82 (or avant-post-punk '68-'77) stuff. But there's definitely a lot of excellent music being made the last few years that doesn't just ape forms of post-punk but really inhabits its spirit. I imagine as staunchly as you're stating your opinion, the music won't dissuade you, but others might find it of interest:

https://musicophilia.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/pp-0717-covers.gif?w=624&zoom=2

A Projection · Ablebody · Agent Side Grinder · Anika · Ashrae Fax · Ausmuteants · Aviaries · Band Aparte · Behavior · Beach Fossils · Beak · Bent · Black Marble · Blau Blau · Blood Sound · Blood Sport · Bobsleigh Baby · Carola Bony · Bootblacks · Cellular Chaos · CFCF · Chromatics · Cold Beat · Cold Cave · Cold Waste · Corners · Corridor · Cowtown · Crumbs · The Dance Asthmatics · Daphni · Death & Vanilla · Dirt Dress · Dirty Ghosts · Disappears · Kyle Dixon & Michael Stein · Drab Majesty · Eagulls · Eat Skull · Electrelane · Electricity In Our Homes · Erase Errata · Esses · Estrambote · The Estranged · Explode Into Colors · Exploded View · Factory Floor · Fear Of Men · Forests · Foster Body · Freak Heat Waves · Frustration · Fujiya & Miyagi · Gesture · Glintshake · Gold Cross · Golden Teacher · Grass Is Green · Grass Widow · Joana Guerra · Hdspns · Holograms · The Knife · Koban · The Kurws · The Lanskies · Lithics · LCD Soundsystem · Lunch · M!R!M · Massicot · Mazing Vids · Melt Yourself Down · Mere Women · Mermaidens · Micachu & The Shapes · Minuit Machine · Mode Moderne · Moss Lime · My Disco · Naked Lights · New Blood · New Fries · The New Sound of Numbers · No Zu · Normal Love · Omni · Opposite Sex · Otzi · Ought · The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart · Parquet Courts · Peaking Lights · Plastic People · Pow! · Preening · Preoccupations · Priests · Primitive Motion · Primitive Parts · Prinzhorn Dance School · Protomartyr · Ravioli Me Away · Frankie Rose · Sacred Paws · Savages · Shadowlands · Shopping · Sneaks · The Soft Moon · Surplus 1980 · Taiwan Housing Project · Talk Normal · Terrible Truths · Terry · Total Control · Total Victory · Trash Kit · Tunabunny · Unur · Uranium Club · Var · Varsovia · Vats · Viet Cong · Virginia Wing · Vivian Girls · Winkie · Wint · The World · Yvette · The Zygotes

https://musicophilia.wordpress.com/2017/10/24/post-punk2007-2017/

In a certain way, all this new stuff sort of cemented my longstanding feeling that whatever post-punk is (that isn't just "the thing that came mostly immediately after punk") isn't a 5-year phenomenon but a continuously evolving musical tradition.

isn't a 5-year phenomenon but a continuously evolving musical tradition.
>
Yeah would hope it would be, I think that was part of what made it interesting in the first place.
People discovering that they can do it yourself once shown the basics. Not following formulas etc.

& what I'm familiar with from the playlist does seem to be a lot of what I'd take the touchstones for development at the time to be.
Can't think offhand exactly how representative of the original bands on the playlist those specific tracks are.
I think there was always a level of filtering what did and didn't fit what was wanted at the time anyway.
So maybe the ideal was revisionist to begin with. As was punk really wasn't it?