What the fuck is this: Castlevania SOTN is now going for like $70?!!

4x strategy probably not a good fit for console either, or text adventures.

4x strategy probably not a good fit for console either, or text adventures.

― valorous wokelord (silby)

i thought you were saying 4x was not a good fit for text adventures and got to thinking about "suspended" (which isn't quite the same thing but has pretty strong strategy elements)

there was a console civ but it was pretty much what you'd expect from a console civ

man this is pretty awesome. feels nice to play this with a PS2 controller but i need my dang Switch code so i can play it there.

i can't get past stage 4 lol. Curse of the Moon is actually legit NES tough.

i am liking the graphics more and more. some of the art looks like random "level asset" tiles but for a game this big it makes sense, plus there is plenty of beautiful art throughout the game. important to remember they had to deal with creating everything from scratch. the 2D Castlevania series were always reusing art and repurposing character designs etc. and by Castlevania they 3 had this library of classic designs that had already withstood multiple teams and generations of games.

not only that but they had less screen space to deal with. the new game is still pixelated 8-bit art but on an HD widescreen scale. thank god they did not have camera zoom. i played some of Harmony of Despair and did not enjoy myself. having the screen too zoomed out makes it look more like a maze, the art looses definition, the sense of place is lost.

they really went classic with this and it feels like an NES game, just designed for a larger screen. level design is classic: some platforms, some stairs, some enemies placed among them. bottomless pits are back, reinforcing the ideal of enemy as level design. the threat of knockback deaths forces you to reconsider your approach. the ghouls and demons placed throughout are not mere combat challenges: they require adjustment of pacing, they require strategy. the bosses are the same, only on a bigger scale. large gorgeous pixel art, wider areas of attack, multi-stage fights. very much an evolution of OoE.

https://i.imgur.com/v9bcWpTl.jpg

this keeps getting better and better. i love the green bricks on red/purple bg they got going in some of these levels. its sort of punk. i love the alchemist, even though he is super slow and useless against most enemies, it is such a cool idea, and sometimes you can actually do some damage w that cane of his.

the enemies are duocolor cartoony horror fantasy throughout and they keep switching it up for every level. rn i am fighting evil giant scissormen and jumping blue bunnies. i just fought a painting (which was more or a puzzle than a fight, which was cool) and earlier i ended up fighting a cool boss on the top of the ship that reminded me of Rondo of Blood crossed w Mega Man.

So lame that backers get their codes not just last but late.

all the backer codes should be out now. i got my NA Switch code last night. also there is a E3 Beta Backer demo of the full game coming June 21st.

still really love "Curse of the Moon". a friend came over to check it out and we used casual mode to run through most of the game. it's a really nice addition cos otherwise it is for real NES hard. casual mode gives you more health but it also nixes fallback, which is a huge help around all those bottomless pits.

finally beat the game on Veteran. now playing on Nightmare and getting wrecked by the turtle boss in level 2. the fight is definitely more difficult. like the move where they are at the top of the screen and rocks fall down 3 times before he lands, now there is a rock right in the middle where you used to be able to hide. yeah it's crazy shit.

also started a new game using Zangetsu and killing the allies, gaining new abilities along the way. the jumping slash and the double jump are very nice, but now im wondering how i will make it through the later stages with a single character...

going back and replaying the earlier levels, it is fun to switch around characters and try out different techniques.

sometimes one of them will have a skill that makes them particularly suitable to nerf the room. sometimes the vampire can just fly over enemy's heads, hitting restorative potions along the way, sometimes he is shit in a room. so there's a bit of strategy to it. it's only a matter of trying them out to see who is best where.

i have Curse of the Moon on Steam and Switch and play it on PS2 controller vs. Joycons and imo i prefer the latter for controller and presentation. for some reason the UI in Windows is a bit crap.

I said this in another thread but worth repeating - Curse of the Moon is really good. Praying that the full, "real" game is as good, because the preview build I checked out last year was pretty weak.

That said - there are SO many indie Metroidvanias and otherwise that have come out over the past decade, I have no idea what's actually worth the time. Looking for advice on this one, since I several in my libraries already - Gaucamelee, La Mulana, Steamworld Dig and more I'm forgetting. I started Shovel Knight, which is pretty awesome. Others I'm curious about like Axiom Verge, Shadow Complex, Ori & The Blind Forest, Dust An Elysian Tail, Salt & Sanctuary, and so on. Someone also mentioned Hollow Knight as a good Metroidvania that just got ported to the Switch. I want hot takes, people - what's actually worth the time?

Shovel Knight is tons of fun, with tons of content. Which Steamworld do you have?

Played Shadow Complex a hundred years ago and it was slick but ultimately kinda bland?

I totally loved Salt & Sanctuary as a 2-D game where all the classic Dark Souls elements are used really well (different classes/approaches, losing your currency upon death and having a chance to regain it, blocking/dodging/parrying, etc). Although oddly I don't have any desire to replay it...they really released it at exactly the right time (just before DS3 came out).

second the S&S love, that's a great game.

I got about halfway through Axiom Verge, got stuck, and completely forgot about it. i played through Shadow Complex and i guess i had a good time but i remember almost nothing of the experience.

I think I have Steamworld Dig 1 on like three different platforms

Oh man, get the sequel! It's the same idea but even cooler and better.

axiom verge is my favorite of the recent batch; hollow knight is also very good (and quite long, I didn't finish it)

I thought Dust an Elysian Tale was really boring

but I did enjoy the Strider reboot, worth a go if you see it cheap

I have that from PS+

new Bloodstained Steam demo is supposed to drop on June 21st.

Hollow Knight definitely rules. it gives me more Metroid feels than Vania but that is mostly the level design. controls are nice and the hand drawn art is very charming in an Edward Gorey way.

Metroidvania games always seem more metroid than vania to me, tbh. The metroid part is the exploration of the map, gradually accumulating new skills/items that let you backtrack and reach previously inaccessible areas. What is the vania part? Just being awesome?

Maybe a sort of Gothy vibe?

I don't think it's a matter of 'parts' - it's that Metroid and middle/late Castlevania are the most influential examples of this formula.

the melee combat. Metroid was shooter based. the focus on fantasy over sci fi.

Oh, we're talking the parts of Hollow Night specifically? nvm

Vampire Killer came out 2 months after Metroid and had backtracking/unblocking previously inaccessible areas. ditto Simon's Quest. "Metroidvania" the term is used because both series have used these elements since their inception.

Hollow Knight makes me think Metroid cos the rooms themselves are cavelike floating platforms and such. you could plop Samus down and it would work. you even attack the barriers on the sides of screens just like you attack the doors in Metroid.

but the combat is more close-quarter, more like SOTN.

middle/late Castlevania

I guess that’s the key. Symphony of the Night, especially. Early castlevanias didn’t have the backtracking and all of that, though, while they were all present in Metroid from the very beginning.

Yeah I was very disappointed to find Castlevania IV on the SNES mini was fully linear, no exploration/backtracking in there at all.

Anyway my metroidvania recommendation if people are looking for good examples of the form would probably be Shadow Complex.

I've gotta try IV again. I don't think I ever finished it. Playing through the original Castlevania with the ILG thread a few years back was so much fun.

Some of the earlier Castlevanias have multiple alternate routes

Rondo of Blood has alternate paths and secret levels. Bloodlines has areas you can only access with certain abilities. Castlevania 3 has alt paths.

Simon's Quest had lots of backtracking and a full 2D open world with upgradable abilities that unlocked inaccessible areas. before that the original Japanese Castlevania Vampire Killer had backtracking and it came out two months after the first Metroid.

Simon's Quest had lots of backtracking and a full 2D open world with upgradable abilities that unlocked inaccessible areas.

obv i defer to you because i know you're a huge fan of those early games, but that's news to me! my old school castlevania go-to is 3. i don't think i ever got far enough in simon's quest to realize it had those elements you were talking about. I should revisit.

Simon's Quest rules! i recommend playing it with a guide as the NPCs are purposefully designed to mislead you in places. once you get past the infamous obscurity it is a really cool game that is ahead of it's time design-wise. also the music is my favorite of the series.

it sort of makes sense that Castlevania would need capacity of a CD to go fully open world though. you can do caverns with minimal tile art compared to a detailed castle where every room sort of has to have a unique look to it and there are all kinds of additional details like chairs, furniture, lamps, etc.

Castlevania has a more dense world. this is one thing i like about Hollow Knight, there is tons of grass, fences, signs, wrought iron posts, etc. architectural detritus of no consequence littering the landscape that you can satisfyingly slice. it is enjoyable even though it provides no real benefit, like rolling in OOT.

i mean all this is _true_ as far as that goes, but nobody really used the term "metroidvania" before sotn, did they?

steamworld dig 2 is definitely an improvement on the first game. kind of blows it out of the water, honestly.

that's it, i'm using internet search

check out this URL: http://tvtropes.org/g00/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Metroidvania?i10c.encReferrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8%3D&i10c.ua=1

This sub-genre gets its name from the Metroid and Castlevania series. The Trope Maker was Metroid, published in 1986, and subsequent Metroid games have consistently used it in all of its installments (except Prime Pinball). Castlevania first used the style in 1986's Vampire Killer and 1987's Castlevania II: Simon's Quest, before abandoning it and then returning to it after the success of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, the Trope Codifier. The term itself was originally used for the Castlevania games of the same style as Symphony of the Night, but Jeremy Parish of Retronauts, expanded the definition so that it referred to an entire genre; his use of the term popularized it, and along with it his definition. Ironically, the designer of Symphony of the Night actually modeled that game on the The Legend of Zelda series, which also shares a number of traits with this genre though is often overlooked in discussions due to not being 2D side-scrolling.

While Metroid and Castlevania were the Trope Maker and Trope Codifier, respectively, the Ur Examples were Brain Breaker (1984/1985) and Dragon Slayer II: Xanadu (1985). Several early Metroidvania titles were inspired by these titles, particularly Xanadu. Metroidvania elements could be traced further back to non-platformer games Tutankham (1982) and The Portopia Serial Murder Case (1983).

interesting tidbit from that:

An interesting note is that the man behind most of the Metroidvania titles had actually never heard of the term until around 2012 (though he quite liked it). He said his inspiration in creating Symphony of the Night actually came from Zelda II: The Adventure of Link (which in turn borrowed elements from Dragon Slayer II: Xanadu and the original Metroid).

E3 backer demo codes have just been released for Bloodstained

yeah the vania part just refers to symphony of the night and it's successors which were the other high profile game series that used metroid style world design in a side scroller

played the new demo for a bit, i like it! very cool that when you change your equipment, it's visually represented in the on-screen character.

this game is looking really cool! the cutscenes are a little rough but the design of the levels themselves is very promising. it really feels like HD SOTN level of detail wise. rooms have all kinds of furniture, chairs, lamps, curtains, cabinets, piles of books, candelabras, the necessary gothic garb. i just want to stop and look at the backgrounds, which is what SOTN made me want to do, so that's a good sign.

the 3D graphics really stand out in areas, like outdoor sections where trees and rows of statues scroll in the foreground and background. some cool perspective effects, like an MC Esher style castle, at play here. they did some of this stuff in SOTN w some light use of 3D animation to emphasize a kind of infinity mirror giant castle. so what we have here is proportionally and gameplay wise pretty classic SOTN level design, with plenty of platforms, only really nice.

this feels like a totally different approach than the 2.5D games they have done so far. the Rondo remake was a little dull and blurry. here things really stand out and it works well. its the closest thing to an HD Dawn of Sorrow. also the game is no pushover which is good news, one of SOTN's biggest criticisms. looking forward to this!

https://i.imgur.com/RMOvSqol.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yDtiCzyl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qYsTpLil.jpg

any game where you can sit down is a good game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_Q1rXhHL6g

oh god the '90s video edit fx