Things you were shockingly old when you learned

Didnt know about the forte/fort thing but I usually say something silly like "in my wheelhouse" anyway like the ass I am.

chayz lounge.

no

Why not?

Luftballons is definitely not an English word, as evidenced by Nina saying "red balloons" in the English version.

my point is more the english-german-english construction which ignores the actual name of the song and is just lazy, like “the tour de fraaaance”

Yeah, it's wrong, but doesn't really raise my hackles. I'm much more sensitive to what I perceive (right or wrong) as "snooty" pronunciations.

xp

Apparently the English substitution of "lounge" dates back some 200 years, so it isn't exactly a modern bastardization.

then you get into that sociolinguistic bullshit of “well enough people get it wrong so it’s just official now”

I mean, that's often how languages work.

never heard anyone say "chaise lounge" before, must be American English? tbf it's not something I hear said very often.

The one that always got on my tits was once one Hell's Kitchen I heard them refer to a turbo rizodo.

It's a turbot risotto.

surely you don't pronounce the "t" in "turbot"??

All of this is fine provided I can still pronounce the s in Paris

and as long as i can pronounce the "v" in PVRIS

Why not?

I'm fine with shez or shayz or Hyacinth Bucket-ing it, but it's a case where it feels wilfully erasing to eradicate the notion that this is a foreign phrase

especially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?

“chair”

re "forte".. i don't think that's a French expression to begin with anyway? so pronounce it however you want. you can say "it's not my strong point" "mon point fort" but that's an adjective

Like sund4r, I always assumed (on the basis of zero evidence apart from the actual pronunciation used by everyone) that "not my forte" was ported into English via Italian musical notation. It still seems like a reasonable assumption to me.

Football is rife with this sort of thing. So you sometimes get British commentators/pundits pronouncung PSG (Paris St. Germain) as Pay-Ess-Zhay, Milan as Mee-lan (the club is called Milan and not Milano because is was set up by British expatriates) and Racing Club as Raaaa-seeng Cloob.

especially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?

otm, this is a pervasive and shitty attitude and i hate it

Oxford dictionary says

Origin

Mid 17th century (in forte (sense 2); originally as fort): from French fort (masculine), forte (feminine) ‘strong’, from Latin fortis.

Football is rife with this sort of thing. So you sometimes get British commentators/pundits pronouncung PSG (Paris St. Germain) as Pay-Ess-Zhay, Milan as Mee-lan (the club is called Milan and not Milano because is was set up by British expatriates) and Racing Club as Raaaa-seeng Cloob.

The day (I'm guessing in the late 80s or early 90s) I heard Ruud Gullit pronouncing Ajax "A-Jacks" was the day I realised this stuff is complicated.

xp fair enough LBI - if it's been in English for 300 years I think I'm happy enough that we needn't refer back to the French for "correct" pronunciation, for-tay is correct usage.

woah back up now, is that how Ajax is supposed to be said??? presumably Ruud wouldn't have fucked that up.

unless he was talking about cleaning products, or Greek heroes?

TIL there is another way to pronounce "Ajax". Ajax, Ontario, is definitely "ay-jacks".

It's 'ah-jaks', and not 'jaxx', in Dutch. But I can see Gullit Dunglishing it

Now I'm confused, because those sound the same to me - I had somehow picked upt he idea that it was ay-axe

woah back up now, is that how Ajax is supposed to be said??? presumably Ruud wouldn't have fucked that up.

I think the point is that he'd adjusted the pronunciation so Ian Wright or whoever could understand who he was talking about. It was always pronounced Aye-ax by our more sophisticated broadcasters, i.e., Barry Davies - where did we get that pronunciation from then?

ay-axe is correct

Right, your last post confused me. And Andrew.

my fault

Talking of being unable to pronounce football teams from far off and exotic lands, LOL @ Grennock Morton.

... and High-bernians.

(I once discussed Gullit's pronunciation with a Dutch colleague, who assured me that he was in fact not Dunglishing (which was, and still is, my guess) but in fact saying Ajax the way Surinamese people say Ajax.)

MW10's usage note, to me, does a good job describing the situation with "forte" without coming down on a side.

In forte we have a word derived from French that in its "strong point" sense has no entirely satisfactory pronunciation. Usage writers have denigrated \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯr-tē\ because they reflect the influence of the Italian-derived 2forte. Their recommended pronunciation \ˈfȯrt\, however, does not exactly reflect French either: the French would write the word le fort and would pronounce it more similar to English for. So you can take your choice, knowing that someone somewhere will dislike whichever variant you choose. All are standard, however. In British English \ˈfȯ-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯt\ predominate; \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \fȯr-ˈtā\ are probably the most frequent pronunciations in American English.

Bold bit is key. I'm very much not a prescriptivist, but in my writing and editing work I try to know the audience and anticipate how they'll react to things. I often have to write things that are way stuffier than I'd like, either because of house style or a tight-assed client.

I have never heard a British person (or as far as I recall anyone) saying "that's not my \ˈfȯt\", for whatever that's worth.

I've only heard it that way from insufferable pedants (usually discussing this very topic), but unfortunately I don't live a pedant-free lifestyle

does single syllable 'fort' sound too close to 'fault' anyway?
& I think I have only ever heard it pronounced forté

(I once discussed Gullit's pronunciation with a Dutch colleague, who assured me that he was in fact not Dunglishing (which was, and still is, my guess) but in fact saying Ajax the way Surinamese people say Ajax.)

― Tim, Friday, May 25, 2018 2:22 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Nah, Surinamese people say Ay-axe the way Dutch people say it, too.

especially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?

otm, this is a pervasive and shitty attitude and i hate it

Hmmmm, I may be completely mistaken, but in the US it's written and pronounced "lounge" as a matter of course. That version is so embedded in our vocabulary, I don't think most people here even consider the French spelling/pronunciation. For example, you only see it spelled "lounge" in furniture stores here. I don't think I've even ever heard it pronounced otherwise here. Not sure it's reflective of any current attitude.

Yeah I had half an idea he was talking arse. But (a) I'm not about to start correcting Dutches on their pronunciation and (b) it's always complicated innit?

It's true I am very used to hearing British people whine "it's not my fault", perhaps I'm getting mixed up.

surely you don't pronounce the "t" in "turbot"??

The final T is always pronounced in UK English. I think UK English tends to anglicise adopted French words more than US English(?) This is purely based on some US colleagues who say things such as "naiveté", whereas here (UK) we'd just say "naivety".

See also “garage”

How do you pronounce “charcuterie” in BrE

I get IR about lazy American pronunciation of French words and phrases (no-tur daym!) but my own French pronunciation is perfectly atrocious so who's the real monster here, basically.

it's only Nee-chee that really does my head. him and Van Go

charred cuties

a student quoted Frederik Nicci in his final paper this semester

The etymology on dictionary.com says turbot was adopted into English in the 13th century, so Americans presumably just pronounce it the French way to be fancy or something

nicci mane

mahb i suspect you're right

i'm trying to think of other examples. the only one i can gin up is "duvet" except British people actually DO say "duvay" i think

ah just remembered: "FILLET"