Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

back on the masculinity thing, a friend of mine told me her (now ex) husband wouldn't help with a lot of the child-rearing, in large part because it was "wussy." cf taking the kid out to a park or something by himself, driving around the kid by himself, not wanting to wear the baby in a sling. not because he was opposed to slings, which is quite defensible, but because it would impact his image, he felt self-conscious about it and wanted her to do it at all times. he was generally very hands off it sounds like, not affectionate with the kid. whatever gets triggered when you set eyes on your child for the first time, it didn't happen.

i've known a couple other dudes like this, who would seemingly rather do anything other than handle being a dad. i find it mystifying moreso now that i'm one myself.

i really don't ever want to have kids and i find that not just mystifying but horrifying.

u dont eat where u shit this is known

― laurel or hardyhearin (darraghmac), Wednesday, May 23, 2018 1:19 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Unless you're a bear. Bears pretty much have to do both things in the woods.

― kilohertz so good (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, May 23, 2018 1:22 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fuck lmao

i was talking about a disparity between online and offline behavior that doesn't line up, which i continue to find nagl as a practice/behavio(u)r
there's no point arguing with dmac about anything, esp not here, so please let us continue to discuss masculinity

If it's about the cheesecake story, I'll own that. It was a decade ago and everyone likely didn't handle it well because it was an odd thing to happen in a corporate office.

― Yerac, Wednesday, 23 May 2018 20:53 (two hours ago) Permalink

yeah, well I've been guilty of that plenty of times, having a laugh or a gawk at something that, when I pause to think about, is actually fairly sad

typically sniffy passive aggression from you itt ll

which isnt, tbfty, arguing as such

typically? you truly do not know me personally but ok
i don't enjoy arguing for argument's sake and i am pretty sure that you do. that is why i said there was no point in arguing with you.

strange

you seem very confident making pronouncements about me in a strikingly similar fashion to what you object to despite not knowing me personally but, as you say, ok

despite my method of what no doubt strikes you as constantly boorish discourse, i dont enjoy argument against individuals at all- and especially where neither of us necessarily enjoy it

but that doesnt mean snide swipes airily aimed at the room dont count just because one has the fine manners to play it that way

its late, ive no wish to drag this on, thats my piece said on it.

From "is gender a spectrum?" to shitting at work in 30 moves (proposed new maleness board description)

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive)

fuck no when i am old i am going to be like james brown and go on a multi-state crime spree because somebody else has shat in my personal toilet

well anyway my friend i mentioned in my previous post didn't split from her ex because of that parenting style, but because he had been cheating on her w/someone starting around the time of her pregnancy. he wept when she rather correctly told him they couldn't stay married *and* he could keep his girlfriend. he was waffling on which choice to make so she booted him out.

So much about dads and their role in their childrens' lives is messed up. It would drive me crazy to see dads lauded at work for leaving early or taking time off to care for their kid while women were seen as not focused on work, irresponsible. What you described above (it was about the not carrying the child or caring for it?) isn't a parenting style. It's negligence on his part.

yeah i should have put "parenting style" in scare quotes

So much about dads and their role in their childrens' lives is messed up. It would drive me crazy to see dads lauded at work for leaving early or taking time off to care for their kid while women were seen as not focused on work, irresponsible. What you described above (it was about the not carrying the child or caring for it?) isn't a parenting style. It's negligence on his part.

― Yerac, Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:35 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Absolutely agree with the latter part of your statement, but fwiw my experience is that the gender prejudice goes very much in the opposite direction in the workplace (or maybe that's what you mean? I may be misreading you) -- it's much more acceptable for a mom than a dad to take off work to care for a child, which is not to say that it's "lauded" exactly but it is more understood. My female colleague works from home every friday because she has young kids and it was made subtly clear to me that the same would not be acceptable for me. I have heard a male job candidate openly mocked for wanting to take leave when his baby was born (he got the job fwiw). I have had an older lawyer make fun of me for discussing babies with another young male dad lawyer. I have heard "why can't your wife do that?" with regard to child-related stuff more than a few times.

Yeah, I think policies regarding childcare and family care should be the same for both men and women in the workplace (that is if you even have benefits at your workplace). It's more common for women to take off but in general people seem "resigned" to it as a thing you have to deal with if you hire women. I don't have children so this is all as a bystander from a decade working in finance.

my co-worker just got pregnant and is going on maternity leave and that seems to be the unspoken norm

if a dude decided to do this i would fully embrace it, i say destroy gender expectations as they're fucking it all up

xpost i know it's not that easy but it's just super lame that dude's feel like they can't take care of a child in public.

super lame doesn't even begin to express it. that's not a father. that's a sperm donor.

I know it's a completely whole other rage inducing topic, but I really despise the empty platitudes of saving unborn babies when we have people neglecting the children they do have (whether by choice, circumstance or ignorance). Messed up children becoming messed up adults, rinse, repeat.

when I first met my now-wife and son, I had never dealt with a child since I had been a child. sure I had encountered them out and about, but mostly paid them no mind. so when his mother asked me to carry him one day (he was 4 and we were out hiking or something), the best I could do was pick him up like a log - one arm around chest, the other arouns his knees. it may have taken me a few more outings before I was able to pick him up and carry him with any sort of familiarity or affection. I also couldn't bring myself to call him by his name, Joey. the best I could muster was Joe. there was undoubtedly a masculine self-image component to this.

but a. he wasnt my own child (yet) and b. I shook that bullshit off after a couple of weeks.

i call boys sweetie, sweetheart, sweet boy, and honey all the time and it feels natural but then i notice most other dads don't do really that

Yeah I hear a lot of buddy, lil' guy, lil' man, dude, lil' dude.

Me, I stick with "homeslice."

xp I also meant *my boys* not any boys lol

Yerac otm

things i call my son besides his name and their variants: baby, bub, bud, bubby, buddy, boog, boogie, booger, goofball, goofy, goof, sweetie, baby bear, booger bear, kiddo, son, sonny, sonny boy, sunshine, big boy

Now that I'm transitioning my dad calls me "sweetie" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

:))))))))))))))

Eliza <3

I've only really lurked here, briefly breaking cover to talk about shitting on work time, but...

Yesterday evening my boy (12) was playing Fortnite online with two mates. We regulate how much he plays, but as it's half-term and he'd just finished football training, we let him have an extra session. Anyway, about an hour in, we could hear him calling his sister in (she's 9). My wife followed up on why he was calling in her in, and it turns out he'd be encouraged, by one of the other boys (also 12) to say that when she was dead, someone was going to rape her dead body. My wife managed to get it out of him; the Xbox was shut down. His violent response is almost a separate/side issue and something we'll deal with.

I guess it's brought a bunch of things into focus for me - most of which have been discussed here: male insularity, the toxic elements of masculinity, emboldened online behaviour etc. I'm going to speak to both sets of parents - not out of a spirit of apportioning blame, more because a) I'd want to know and b) it's been brought into my house and I don't see that I have any other choice - and ban the Xbox for an extended period. I've also discussed in-depth with my boy precisely why this is so offensive and dangerous. Thankfully, he's responded exactly how I'd want him to (a mix of innocence, self-disgust and contrition), so that's something.

Boys are going to test the boundaries with this stuff and I get that, but jesus, what am I creating/harbouring here? I'm not about to start conflating 'war! gaming! violence!' hysterically (well, not much) but how do we educate and protect against all this?

uncool controversial opinion: gaming and violence are not as distinct as people who game (ie all of ilx) might say

so much more concern over boys watching porn than on the endless murder games

I'm curious abt the relationship between the games themselves and the culture which has evolved around them. I think there's particularly something abt the dynamic of chatting away distractedly as you concentrate on fantastical violence that is fertile ground for glib dehumanising conversation

yeah, it all feels v disconnected from healthy human development

also the flippant ease of abuse on smartphones is tied into this, you cunts!

teen boys were horrible shits when i was one, back before online communication was common, and i'm fairly sure they have been horrible shits throughout human history

i'm not at all sure that online gaming has made them more horrible in general, but it has def made it easier for them to widen their circle of shithead acquaintance

it's the vacuity of it though

in what sense? it's not like #teens were earnestly debating the finer points of wittgenstein with each other before xbox live was invented

no, but they learnt that everything they did had real emotional consequences, for better or worse. online gaming discourse is couched in these ridiculous layers of irony where popular youtubers will scream in mock-rage when they get fragged and talk about rape or use racist epithets and the kids who watch 4000 of their videos per day can't distinguish sincere from ironic so you wind up with all of youth being thus kind of aimlessly profane drone army of depressed twats

chinaski's son just learned that his online behaviour had real emotional consequences, because chinaski seems like a good, properly attentive parent

not to get all #notallgamers but 'online gaming discourse' is a spectrum, like any other discourse, and parents should be taking an interest in what their kids are watching and doing online and making sure they're not imbibing a steady diet of poison imo

all of youth being thus kind of aimlessly profane drone army of depressed twats

and not to get all #fuckcapitalism but kids are growing up in a world with increasingly narrow opportunities so no wonder they're depressed - it's not all pewdiepie's fault

those who shout loudest and most obnoxiously get shared the most. yeah it's a spectrum, but pewdiepie is the most-watched for a reason. and it's not because he offers escape from socioeconomic degradation

btw feminism is cancer

^^^have had tutees say this to me

m8 YOU'RE cancer

uncool controversial opinion: gaming and violence are not as distinct as people who game (ie all of ilx) might say

Sure, but neither are action movies and violence, or comics and violence. Vidya games up the ante by being a more active hobby, but it's pretty clear our culture's been worshipping violence for ages, and it's not a conversation people enjoy having because it still feels PMRC. I keep meaning to read up more on cultures that have a very violent pop culture but low rates of actual violence.

youtuber culture is a related but separate issue I think; you get that kind of discourse outside gaming too, and of course you get a lot of gamers that couldn't be further away from it (the Polygon crew for instance).

it is undeniable that wars breed violent atrocities like maggots from a dead horse. the cognitive dissonance of killing people leads first to desensitization, then to the dehumanization of the enemy, which then may extend to dehumanizing all humans including oneself. war is known to be extremely alienating to many combat soldiers.

first person shooter games generally depict war and casual violence. they also tend to become as much like immersive virtual reality as the technology allows. it is reasonable to think that spending hundreds of hours immersed in lifelike virtual war could have psychological effects on some of its players that might be similar to the desensitizing effects of real warfare, though not as extreme.

counterpoint: no it is not reasonable to think that.

there is a massive gap between the emotional and psychological resonance of violence in games and in real life. they are barely related past the surface

so, you are saying that it could not possibly have any psychological effects on any of its players?