Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

Mo' money, mo' problems, iirc.

Yes, of course there are a myriad of other factors that open doors for people and allow them to create whole new sets of problems for themselves. And a lack of money, education, etc. definitely make for bigger hurdles, but the fact remains that those arenas are far more easily navigable for the demographics I mentioned.

aren't we talking a bit past each other when some ppl are mentioning problems like depression and addiction, but the comicsgate grievances are more "straight white men can't find jobs/representation in the comics industry any more"?

Like I can totally get being upset at anyone minimizing these issues, no matter how privileged the person affected, but when it comes to "discrimination" in the comics industry Old Lunch is totally OTM

xp that's totally true, but it'd also be true for any smaller collection of those attributes. I just think that if you're going to say "the more you match this list the more your problems are largely of their own making" - which is both true and an important point - then money needs to be on the list.

Daniel OTM about Old Lunch being OTM!

When people who have (and particularly people who've inherited the gains achieved by those before them) fail to appreciate how they got what they have, they begin to take what they have for granted, to expect. Expectation is bundled with the notion of deserving what you have, of having earned it. Which suggests that people who don't have what you have must not deserve it. And if they want what you have, it must entail something being taken from you, something you've earned. If you're stuck in this mindset of victimhood, under siege by some undeserving other, and the privilege you've enjoyed is compromised for any reason, the tendency may be to start laying blame upon that other. Because if you deserve and have earned what you have and expect it to continue unabated, if you're the unquestioned hero of your own narrative, then someone else has to be the villain. And this entire complex is further complicated by the fallacy of viewing privilege as some finite resource, of thinking that you're going to suffer some great loss because someone who doesn't look like you insists on asserting their personhood.

(NB, It's early yet and that may not be entirely coherent.)

There's also the aspect where resource is some finite resource, and privilege is what gets you more resource (CF 500 media studies papers about the rise in popularity of zombie movies (including particularly "grimy" zombie mobs) in a world starting to think about serious resources shortages in the medium term)

It probably goes without saying here, but a lot of the butthurt defensiveness on the part of the privileged when they feel their privilege being compromised is probably informed by their understanding, on some level, that they in fact did not earn much of the privilege they enjoy, that the disparity that enables their privilege was gained through oppression, by generations of those in a position of privilege gaming the system in their favor. That's a tough pill to swallow, so many opt for the red pill instead.

the whole blame argument is one i've not much stomach for anyway. is it my fault i suffer from severe clinical depression? no, not really, and christ it doesn't fucking matter. i can whine all day about how unfair it is that i'm depressed and nothing is going to change. i am still responsible for what i say and do, no matter how many cognitive distortions and outright delusions i have to deal with. these right-wingers today seem to lack almost entirely any sense of personal responsibility. whenever something goes wrong for them it's always somebody else's fault. until and unless that changes there's nothing at all i, or anyone else, can do to help.

and yeah, the just world fallacy needs to die in a fire.

on second thought, best bet is just hammering ppl over the head w generalised statements about privilege & responsibility, anyone that thinks this is useless has quit too soon

xxp Also a fear that the pendulum will swing back, and an appeal that it shouldn't swing back further than fair, because that wouldn't be fair! I mean in practice that means pointing at any move to the centre as the necessary correction that we can stop with now, right?

"True feminists want equality, but these fake feminists want to subjugate men"

on second thought, best bet is just hammering ppl over the head w generalised statements about privilege & responsibility, anyone that thinks this is useless has quit too soon

― ogmor

hey if you want to spend your time giving alt-righters the soft sell about why they should be decent human beings be my guest, i agree with you that it's probably essential to give people an out. i'm not trying to change anybody's mind and i'm not handing out carrots.

I read this in theroot yesterday and it seems applicable here. "Most people don’t want equality; they are simply seeking their opportunity to play the oppressor." I really hope that in the original post where lb is talking about his friend "owning sjw's" that only includes healthy debate and not, like, sending strangers rape threats.

i don't think that's true at all. i don't want to oppress anybody, i just have an insatiable desire for revenge based on real or perceived slights.

here is some ComicsGate BS, right on cue: https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/jawbreakers-comic-comicsgate-antarctic/

Oh, I totally have that too. But my basis for revenge is on specific people that I know.

I think there's something in the gulf between "these guys are just angry because people are paying attention to people who _aren't them_" and the anecdotes boxedjoy mentioned. All of those examples sound very familiar, but inherited attitudes and family dynamics or organically starting to absorb some political opinions from a new social group seem like a different animal from the mostly online gamergate/comicsgate groups.

There's something particular vicious about the pointed "punish the people we think are outliers" mentality when they're creating actual lists of names and attacking people. I guess it's completely on the table as opposed to glancing at a picture of women in an office and mumbling "oh, well you know how THEY got there" but honestly, the online mob is doing that, too. And that more insidious attitude, which occurs even in people who are otherwise reasonable, is where they gain ground.

ugh, that article. I mean it shouldn't be a revolutionary thought that white men's stories have been centered in this world for so long that it's utterly boring to always have them as a protagonist/writer. I don't know when it subconsciously changed for me but I have very little interest in consuming culture from that viewpoint. In this world, and me not being a white man, it is not interesting in the slightest.

yeah apart from all the other nonsense that comic looks appallingly bland and boring

Like, I am watching the second season of Billions right now and all these dudes are sooooo boring (granted I worked in finance for a decade so none of this is novel to me.) Thank goodness they put in a non-binary character to give it an interesting character.

I can only imagine that the industry's response will serve as a wake-up call to the creators of that comic, that they'll see this widespread repudiation of their viewpoint as a sign of its unacceptability, and that they will attempt to reign in their childish vitriol in the hope of being accepted as professionals that the industry will once again feel comfortable hiring.

Did u like my joke, y/n.

Or they can create graphics for dick supplements.

As a straight white cis American dude, I agree that pretty much all of the stories about people like me are unnecessary and played out.

At least like in Bojack, they had the good sense to make the depressed, alcoholic, ego/ennui-centric dude a horse.

Here's just one of the things about these Jawbreakers knuckleheads: you know they're going to have a massive tantrum over Antarctic cancelling their comic, but...fer chrissakes, you already raised $250 grand. Go self-publish your stupid, hateful little tract if you have to. I get the feeling they went through an established publisher in part to engineer a predictable situation they could then express butthurt about.

I do experience a mild enjoyment every time one of the idiots in this vein does something as a knee-jerk reaction that looks infinitely dumber than what they're protesting

I mean it shouldn't be a revolutionary thought that white men's stories have been centered in this world for so long that it's utterly boring to always have them as a protagonist/writer. I don't know when it subconsciously changed for me but I have very little interest in consuming culture from that viewpoint. In this world, and me not being a white man, it is not interesting in the slightest.

this post resonated with me enough to pipe up even though talking about this topic is akin to jumping into a cesspool. i realized this when i realized that i wanted to read to understand the stories of people who were not like me. reading about myself is pretty boring since i have to be myself every day for the rest of my life. i would much rather read about someone whose experience i would have no way of knowing unless i read about it. i was probably 12? reading men's stories was part of that, since i am not a man and was curious for a while about what they thought. that phase lasted about as long as my indie snob phase, maybe 3-4 years. i don't have a problem reading stories written by men as much as stories centered around the experiences of men.

and even then, there are plenty of interesting stories about men's experiences.
specifically i definitely don't ever need to read another author like richard yates again

The Root got their own Gamergater in the comments the other day, which was interesting:

https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com/calling-the-police-is-white-peoples-applecare-for-black-1825954790 - search for SeriouslyMike

The vast majority of my reading over the past several years has been very pointedly about exposing myself to perspectives different than my own and trying to understand the historical context that informs the power dynamics we experience today. I feel like I learn something revelatory every day, and many of the things I learn are almost certainly part of the daily lived experience of someone in a less privileged position than me.

I'm sure it's surprising no one to note that the vast majority of comics DC and Marvel publish are still from the perspective of straight white males. And that even when high profile characters get turned into Not That - Thor, Cap, Iron Man - this usually lasts a short period of time before the original characters return. So it's not like ComicsGate is a reaction to any kind of real attempt to radically alter the demographic make-up of superhero characters, it's just now it's 85% straight white male protagonists as opposed to 95%.

i think a lot of it is being really, really mad that kamala khan ms. marvel is selling like gangbusters at barnes and noble, and there's nothing they can do about it.

I think there's a shade of now that the high profile characters have reverted, the SJWs responsible for the original aberration should learn their lesson and resign in shame. NB this is not how any part of that works.

I think that comfort and defining the edges of identity are huge when it comes to how comfortable people are with a diversity of writers. When I was younger, and had a lot fewer life experiences, my ability to relate to nearly any writer was pretty low. Because I was young, not that outgoing socially, and it was all somewhat foreign. But I did gravitate to writers with backgrounds that weren't that dissimilar to my own because there's this baseline where, especially if you're a novice when it comes to fiction, you can start to delineate your own views within those of characters. This guy is like me, but I'm more vocal, less outgoing, less worldly, more cynical.

You get something completely different from fiction, especially first-person fiction, when you're reading from the perspective of someone who has a much different background. And it's both liberating and enlightening, and I really don't think a lot of readers or even writers get that. Especially the writers who write characters who are different from themselves that come off as a caricature of what the writer thinks they'd be like.

It's been mentioned before on ilx but comics writer (among other professional works) Christopher Priest has written about his experiences in comics and his years of turning down work because he was only approached to write black characters. Which makes absolutely no sense, because he's a good writer and I've never read anything he did with a white male character and thought "wow, he got white guys completely wrong." But it's a low key indictment of everyone else in the industry -- editors really can't expect other people to write black characters and get them right

And this entire complex is further complicated by the fallacy of viewing privilege as some finite resource, of thinking that you're going to suffer some great loss because someone who doesn't look like you insists on asserting their personhood.

(NB, It's early yet and that may not be entirely coherent.)

― The lovely and talented Loretta Switt and the irascible Jamie Farr (Old Lunch), Tuesday, May 15, 2018 1:32 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

As a straight white cis American dude, I agree that pretty much all of the stories about people like me are unnecessary and played out.

― The lovely and talented Loretta Switt and the irascible Jamie Farr (Old Lunch), Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:31 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think your second post here kind of explains the 'fallacy' you mention in the first post - I think these comicsgate ppl know that there are still plenty of comics (and other forms of media) about white males, for the most part it seems like what they get defensive about is the idea that stories about white males are inherently worthless? and they see the idea that white male stories are unnecessary and played out as implicit/explcit in the celebration of the (still a minority of stories) that aren't about white men (which it is in some of the celebrations). like, if you agree these stories are 'unnecessary and played out' then you are talking about a finite resource, in terms of what stories are meaningful?

when white guys cheerfully agree that stories about white guys are 'unnecessary' I guess I ... just don't buy it at some level? It feels disingenuous somehow, like it's a way of transmuting self-effacement into smugness. when white guys say things like 'the vast majority of my reading over the past several years has been very pointedly about exposing myself to perspectives different than my own' - if a white male reads a story it's filtered through his white male perspective just as much as when a white male writes a story, regardless of whether the protagonist is a white male or not - you literally can't get away from the white male pov! if you accept that white male stories are unnecessary and played out then that applies to both output and input? the logical endpoint of accepting these seems like accepting the worthlessness of everything you think, say and do, not just what you write?

I think you are overthinking it, the bottom line is they are outraged by the existence of things that they personally do not want to read

This is a good article an ilxor posted today. "We are as a culture moving on to a future with more people and more voices and more possibilities. Some people are being left behind, not because the future is intolerant of them but because they are intolerant of this future."

https://lithub.com/rebecca-solnit-the-myth-of-real-america-just-wont-go-away/

otm. All this also entirely disregards the fact that women in many genres are expected to empathise with male protagonists and POVs. There’s a plurality of male perspectives and protagonists in most genres, and giving the argument any oxygen ignores the fact that they are angry that women/poc/lgbt people are present at all or reminding them of their existence.

Reaching back to omar's post a good 100 posts ago:

rants about "benefits scroungers" (even though he was on the "rock'n'roll" himself for the best part of a decade)

I've encountered this one enough times to see a pattern and it strikes me that this is usually based in shame about their earlier self, who they outgrew and now reject with a certain amount of self-loathing. Then they project that earlier self, who they now loathe, upon everyone else getting benefits. The fact that they were once in a similar position, far from making them more sympathetic, just reminds them how much they dislike remembering themselves as they were then.

"nobody came to help me when I was on food stamps!"

id say yere awful close to solving it now folks

Some people are being left behind, not because the future is intolerant of them but because they are intolerant of this future. White men, Protestants from the dominant culture are welcome, but as Chris Evans noted, the story isn’t going to be about them all the time, and they won’t always be the ones telling it. This country has room for everybody who believes that there’s room for everybody.

this is hard to square with

I don't know when it subconsciously changed for me but I have very little interest in consuming culture from that viewpoint. In this world, and me not being a white man, it is not interesting in the slightest.

As a straight white cis American dude, I agree that pretty much all of the stories about people like me are unnecessary and played out.

(obviously if you're not interested in these stories that's fine and you're not under any any obligation to - but this reads like you're saying that their redundancy more than just subjective. and I know this is all rhetorical and actually existing culture from a white male perspective is plentiful and not about to disappear any time soon, but I think a lot 'comicsgate' and similar is more about theory and principle rather than actual situation, both among supporters and detractors?

almost namechecked you earlier, darragh

the flak you point in my direction is, to a fault, true when it comes to dealing with people one-on-one, in real life. I talk trash about people, I worry about friends without cutting them off or explaining the flaws in their beliefs, I do all that shit. talking about this stuff, the macro scale of why people adopt these attitudes... it's not always applicable to every person

but really you come off as if we're being condescending amateur social scientists and you expect we should just go "well, the lads are trash" and knock off to the pub or just not talk about this shit at all

I mean, that might not be what you're getting at, but it's how I usually take it. which, fair, you've got to draw a line somewhere

for the most part it seems like what they get defensive about is the idea that stories about white males are inherently worthless?

It's intersting to me that the counterarguments to my posts itt seem to keep countering arguments I didn't actually make. I did say that stories about straight white dudes are (to me) largely unnecessary and played out, but I did not say they were inherently worthless. If you're looking for stories for, by, and about the adventures and travails of heterosexual men of Eastern European descent, you have basically the entirety of recorded history of Western literature to pick through. There is probably no demographic which has been chronicled more thoroughly in the history of the written word. The only white dude narrative tack that would be of genuine interest to me at this point is an honest reckoning of our relationship to the non-white dude world.

xpost Yeah, a lot of this discussion went sideways. Comicsgate, I don't know. If I had had more interesting female protaganists in comics when I was younger, I probably would've been more into comics rather, than say, Nancy Drew or Lucky Santangelo. But I also think that the white male protagonist story is boring, due to it's redundancy, and likely ratio of mediocre crap/excellence.

I was watching that David Letterman netflix interview with Tina Fey this weekend and I am really glad that Nell Scovell called out his blatant "oh gee, who me?" cluelessness about why he rarely had women and I think never a poc in the writer's room in over 3 decades. Paraphrasing Tina Fey, there is certain material or jokes that are funny or worthwhile to women or poc that would never even register to a room full of white men.

There's a kind of northeastern mid-20th-century straight white male coming-of-age story I've read enough of to last me pretty much forever (John Updike, John Cheever, John Gardner, Salinger, Carver). Even the more experimental postmodern metafictionalists (Vonnegut, Gaddis, Gass, Coover, Barthelme) seem a bit tired to me now.

Yr late-20th-century doodz also seem decently well heard from (Chabon, Franzen, Wallace, Coupland, Eggers).

I'm open to the thought that somebody out there is doing something new and I should consider it, but honestly I'm pretty tired so the bar is going to be high.

latebloomer, try substitution therapy and get your friend into something obnoxious with a broad following like chapo trap house that's comparatively benign

when white guys cheerfully agree that stories about white guys are 'unnecessary' I guess I ... just don't buy it at some level? It feels disingenuous somehow, like it's a way of transmuting self-effacement into smugness. when white guys say things like 'the vast majority of my reading over the past several years has been very pointedly about exposing myself to perspectives different than my own' - if a white male reads a story it's filtered through his white male perspective just as much as when a white male writes a story, regardless of whether the protagonist is a white male or not - you literally can't get away from the white male pov! if you accept that white male stories are unnecessary and played out then that applies to both output and input? the logical endpoint of accepting these seems like accepting the worthlessness of everything you think, say and do, not just what you write?

― soref, 15. maj 2018 18:48 (fifty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Can we just take a moment to appreciate the leaps of logic in this post?

Anyways, I don't entirely agree that 'white dude stories' are played out, exactly because so many of them have been so superficial and kliché-ridden. When Old Lunch calls for 'an honest reckoning of our relationship to the non-white dude world' then I'd say: Yes! There are so many stories to be told there, that I've never seen. However, I know from discussing this with my fellow film critics, that women don't agree. I loved the new film Damsel with Robert Pattinson, thought it was a tremendously inventive and new and honest and true depiction of how white dudes see themselves in relation to women - specifically the need to see ourselves as heroes and them as damsels. The critic I discussed it with, she pointed out that it was a wannabe-feminist film that failed the Bechdel test, and that everything I thought was new about the film was something she knew from real life, and that she had no use for it. So...

It's not entirely untrue that the solution isn't just less stories from a white dude viewpoint, but also more non white dudes / less white dudes in every part of the process, from artist to critic to audience. Which is a bit of a bummer, though I guess I should be fine.

I mean, many women don't agree :) Not blanket 'women'.

Everyone is coming from a different place on the spectrum constantly trying to move that window over. Even the black community has criticisms for Dear White People, that the main character of desire in the show is a half black, light skinned woman.