Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

there was a recent episode of This American Life about a confrontation between one of the more assertive right-wing student groups and the students and faculty of a university that alluded to, but didn't spell out, the methodology of their confrontations

and that's really it in a nutshell: the politics are secondary to the provoking of a confrontation, and how to shape the views of the community by making it a strong us-versus-them conflict as opposed to a conversation. saying and doing the most offensive things in order to provoke a reaction in kind, which is then held up as some sort of breach of... I don't know, values or civility

setting yourself in opposition to people who, for the most part, just want to be treated fairly and equally by trolling them and making their lives hell is pretty weak

like, it's one thing to mock people for invoking "the patriarchy" but if you ask one of these alt-right kids "ok, there are 80% male faculty members at your school, and advocating for hiring based on merit alone isn't changing this, and it's been shown that students generally feel more valued when some of their teachers are a reflection of their own live experiences. what do you think we should do?" they have no answers. and the vicious part isn't that they want to uphold the status quo -- they're actively trying to provoke the people who are already exceptions to the rule to anger, so that they can drive them out and screw up the system

the long answer is that most of the people being taken by these hucksters aren't going to see any material gains, either. you could have an all white male staff and still fail all your classes because you refuse to learn, but they're not quite seeing that

going back to the comics thing, it's pretty much the same thing. the comics industry was dominated by white men, and guess what? not every kid who could draw a halfway decent spider-man was guaranteed a job then, either

had somehow never heard of comicsgate but jfc that is some deranged shit.

In my experience, or in my own personal case, I see some of what mh says. For my relative, the them and us is existential, and the 'them' will always be the 'them', discussion is obsfucation, its more deep seated than that, its not going to change anything, it is merely the sound of a petty criminal trying to avoid his fate in court.

In some ways it predates all this recent commotion in the media, thats just given it a structure, a framework. Predating all that was an outlook that was very black and white, anything other than that is perceived as trying to muddy the waters. My 'role' is either to agree with them, or failing that, act as the opponent should. You're with us, or you're one of them, a snowflake, a Putin sympathizer, brainwashed by the bbc, there isnt anything else but these two options.
it feels like a desire for certainty. They also only believe in the tangible, depression doesnt exist, anxiety don't exist, priviledge doesnt exist, simply cannot conceptualize them, they are made up excuses.

In some way, its the same thing about reading or learning. What does the university lecturer have to offer the aristocrat or businessman? If the lecturer is so smart, why doesnt he have any money. Who needs their notebooks and manuals, after all, how hard can it be

a lot of the materials are, like ryan alluded, very cult-like. they don't try to teach, they try to explain that you already know what is right and the people who say otherwise are your enemies. it's a self-protective hubris -- acknowledging that others may have perspectives that you could learn from, or that you might have been mistaken in your beliefs, is a blow to your sense of self. you always had value, you were always right, and here's this man to tell you those things. you just needed a little boost, to line things up to be more effective.

when i mentioned that people are unhappy and searching for answers, i think the subtext is that they're searching for answers that fit into their specific worldview rather than challenge their worldview. they've maybe been challenged to some extent before because of those views and have been seeking out their safe space, or waiting for a safe time to unleash them. it's obvious of course that the response many people have to being challenged for their views is to shift further in that direction rather than questioning themselves, and whether or not they were correct in the first place.

In lieu of full-scale education in critical thinking skills, the least we can do for kids is to promote the idea that the only version of being wrong that isn't totally 100% okay and natural is when you double down in lieu of self-reflection.

imo the hardest thing is acknowledging that life is complex and there's never one good right answer that is going to work for you forever, so you should probably think things through and accept a little ambiguity

the thing that blows my mind about the whateveronline-gate people is that a bunch of the twitter hustlers drifted right from that into the alt-right, and some have jumped ship and are -- I shit you not -- selling vitamins and diet supplements now

This is why, i think, the most effective way of not being pulled into .these weird conversations that actually arent conversations - is just not to go along with it, not to play the game.

I can't criticize anyone for cutting off or ostracizing, because each situation is different and you have to do what you feel is the right thing, but I think just not letting yourself get sucked in goes a long way. You're not obliged to discuss any particular topic, if I tried to bring every topic round to involve leopards, nobody would indulge me with that! They wouldnt debate me about the leopards, they'd just change the subject

the thing that blows my mind about the whateveronline-gate people is that a bunch of the twitter hustlers drifted right from that into the alt-right, and some have jumped ship and are -- I shit you not -- selling vitamins and diet supplements now

Yeah I heard Cernovich was getting into some kind of block chain-based mysticism? It’s all just so stupid.

It's like when my brother tried to open up a debate about why women made poor managers and he could never work for a woman. I am not debating. I call him an asshole and move on in my day.

they don't try to teach, they try to explain that you already know what is right and the people who say otherwise are your enemies. it's a self-protective hubris -- acknowledging that others may have perspectives that you could learn from, or that you might have been mistaken in your beliefs, is a blow to your sense of self.

its a lil too easy tbh

yea these dudes are all drifting into the Alex Jones zone, which, to be fair, is a hell of a lucrative grift

decidedly not what i was hinting at my man

As a general thing, people need to be reminded that the extent to which their own demographic info overlaps with that of a cisgender white Christian American male without some sort of physical or mental disability is the extent to which their problems are probably largely of their own making.

man, I wish there were easy answers

half of this shit is like, why are you even putting all this effort into it? get a job, maybe stop for a beer on the way home, watch some tv or read comic books or whatever. why does every person need to invest all this time in who is writing what and why?

I mean, that goes for me too, but I’m not crafting my identity around it, I’m just posting about it on a message board and shrugging

adam, seriously.... wtf. these are not just some random 'media critics' latebloomer disagrees with, though that is precisely what they want to define themselves as, in a tendentious gambit to deny that they're facilitating harassment campaigns as a wedge to keep women, minorities, and gender nonconforming individuals out of their field of interest. you're coming off a little like "so he posted a bunch of swastikas. what's the big deal? i've never seen that symbol before, is it a thing or something? from what i've been able to gather it seems like it's something to do with south asian religions. the guy's a good friend, why rock the boat over something like that?" etc.

Old Lunch just laid down more than the usual amount of wisdom there, holy shit

xpost to mh Particularly when, in this instance, the complaint is that those who've completely dominated 99% of the history of a particular medium dominate slightly less of that medium at this particular moment.

As a general thing, people need to be reminded that the extent to which their own demographic info overlaps with that of a cisgender white Christian American male without some sort of physical or mental disability is the extent to which their problems are probably largely of their own making.

this seems unlikely to convince people of the error of their ways, at least as an opening gambit? is there a third option beyond "blame SJWs" and "blame yourself"?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P6AA1sBL7N8/hqdefault.jpg

Making it about blame is kinda the crux of the entire issue. If the mechanisms of society are skewed heavily in your favor (however unfairly), you can make the most of that fact or you can bitch and moan as if you've been personally affronted or had something taken from you when less privileged people succeed despite having the deck stacked against them.

most people end up as failures of one sort or another, making a point of reminding white males that their status as failure is wholly their own fault - what is the positive result you think will result from this? that a critical mass of white guys will accept that all their problems are because they objectively suck, and they'll then start supporting social justice?

If you were to show this thread to someone who has contracted brain rot from alt-right memes, it would probably comfort them in their belief system. But what does it matter, since barely anyone cares for dialogue at this point anyway? Perhaps a war will sort it all out at some point.

soref you may need to de-strawmannify this bit

wholly their own fault

pretty stubbornly mischaracterizes OL's post, which reads

probably largely of their own making

And IME it's not necessarily about a "positive result." More about discouraging the enormously *negative* results entailed by white dudes deciding that their problems can & should be blamed on women and nonwhite ppl

and the record will show that when men blame women for their problems, the results are very often highly asymmetrical (aka death)

similarly to how when white people blame people of color the results are highly asymmetrical (aka death)

i went to high school with two cisgender white christian males who were addicted to heroin and hung themselves at the ages of 15 and 17. must've been there own fault i guess

or possibly reliance on viewing the world through identitarian bromides is also a form of brain worms

ugh idbros

Reading comprehension is a useful thing for kids to learn, too, I find.

The earlier, the better.

In lieu of full-scale education in critical thinking skills, the least we can do for kids is to promote the idea that the only version of being wrong that isn't totally 100% okay and natural is when you double down in lieu of self-reflection.

― Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, May 14, 2018 11:26 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I remember doubling down as a youth, no matter how trivial the stakes or how uninformed I was. The only way to win in life is to turn every conversation into an argument, and then get the other person to admit you have won that argument.

Hi, jim. A bad faith misreading of something someone says is not a counterargument.

half of this shit is like, why are you even putting all this effort into it? get a job, maybe stop for a beer on the way home, watch some tv or read comic books or whatever. why does every person need to invest all this time in who is writing what and why?

I mean, that goes for me too, but I’m not crafting my identity around it, I’m just posting about it on a message board and shrugging

― mh, Monday, May 14, 2018 3:09 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark

yeah this is how i feel about it. and it is true, different people come at this stuff w different levels of engagement, different levels of knowledge. some people genuinely don't care, or haven't spent all day long thinking it through.

these are not just some random 'media critics' latebloomer disagrees with, though that is precisely what they want to define themselves as

i am not and engaged as you are on this topic and the culture around these people. see, this is an opportunity for you to explain who these people are.

you're coming off a little like "so he posted a bunch of swastikas. what's the big deal? i've never seen that symbol before, is it a thing or something? from what i've been able to gather it seems like

ok this is bullshit. you are accusing me of things i am not saying. Dr. C i love talking with you about music or video games or movies or whatever but you need to rethink this hostility. peace out everyone.

Hi, jim. A bad faith misreading of something someone says is not a counterargument.

― The lovely and talented Loretta Switt and the irascible Jamie Farr (Old Lunch), Monday, May 14, 2018 2:36 PM (nineteen seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

not bad faith, if you were trying to express something that wasn't entirely reductive and banal it doesn't come across to me no matter how many times i look the sentence over

and while i don't buy the whole "the rise of the alt-right is the fault of the tumblr left" argument - there's nothing that excuses being conservative, let alone alt-right imo - this kind of rhetoric is absolutely beloved by the online far-right

adam, i often enjoy your posts on those topics also! i have no global beef w/ you. my post came from, it was pointed out in response to yr first post itt that these was not just a matter of disagreeing with the media critics other people read. you came back with "okay i have no idea who these people are. please explain why this is some decades-old friendship killing thing. these people are media critics, right? why judge him on believing what you believe that these media people believe." i said that this came off "a little like" a person who's never heard of swastikas wondering what the big deal is. which is something it comes off a little like imo. i guess i could have just said "use google" or "go reread the gamergate thread and then take a guess as to what kind of content might be at stake here." maybe it wasn't the most charitable response i could have posted but when you've already been told that the stakes are high and there's white/male revanchist shit afoot, why adopt the "i need to know more to understand why this would be a friendship-killing thing" posture?

I very intentionally omitted any mention of fault or blame from what I wrote earlier. If you 'win' the demographic jackpot most favored by our society, you have decidedly more control over your fate than do those who are born or who self-select (eg, religion) into groups which have historically been othered and oppressed. This is not to say you won't face obstacles and hardships and all kinds of shit beyond your control, but you have a significantly better chance of overcoming those hardships than someone with a similar background who also happens to be brown or gay or a woman.

"you're coming off a little like "so he posted a bunch of swastikas. what's the big deal? i've never seen that symbol before, is it a thing or something? from what i've been able to gather it seems like"

ok this is bullshit. you are accusing me of things i am not saying. Dr. C i love talking with you about music or video games or movies or whatever but you need to rethink this hostility

Casino 100% OTM, since Ethan Van Sciver is the most significant proponent of gamergate2.

not bad faith, if you were trying to express something that wasn't entirely reductive and banal it doesn't come across to me no matter how many times i look the sentence over

I don’t think Dr. C was being at all hostile, either! just exasperated because these events and jerks are very readily searchable and most people seem to have a handle on what we’re talking about without describing them in detail in-thread

If you 'win' the demographic jackpot most favored by our society, you have decidedly more control over your fate than do those who are born or who self-select (eg, religion) into groups which have historically been othered and oppressed. This is not to say you won't face obstacles and hardships and all kinds of shit beyond your control, but you have a significantly better chance of overcoming those hardships than someone with a similar background who also happens to be brown or gay or a woman.

otmXten

No, white doodz (of whom I am one), it's not that you've had an easy life. Or that everything bad in your life is wholly your fault.

It's simply that the things that were hard for you would have been HARDER for someone coming from different circumstances. And if you're a reasonably well-adjusted, self-reliant individual, it does you no harm to recognize that.

this thread is very long and hard to read but nonetheless here's my experiences:

my friend from school J, who I didn't see for a good five years, moved to a flat beside mine a few years ago, and we ended up reconnecting. J is a good person - she is funny, and thoughtful, and honest. But she has also suffered in her life at the hands of abusive family and bullying for her weight. Her first proper boyfriend (who she met three years ago, at 28 years old) was a horrible man who dealt Class A drugs and told his flatmates that it wasn't a problem for them to walk in and watch them have sex. J has some really fucked up ideas about her own self-worth because of this, but she also has some horrible opinions about women and feminism, "she wore a short dress so she was giving off the signals she wanted it" basic horror stuff. Speaking with mutual friends, it's clear that J's problematic antifeminist views are a result of internalising shitty behaviour from men about her appearance and value and how she's processed some of the things that happened to her - I think its easier for her to believe it's her fault than she spend two years hung up on a bad bastard. I've tried to suggest the wrongness of this internal thought process but it doesn't work at all. Interstingly she loves RuPaul's Drag Race and from watching that has developed some of the most compassionate and supportive stances on LGBT issues. So when she says other problematic stuff, my belief is it's borne out of ignorance and fear, and the best way to deal with that isn't to hector her but to keep introducing her to culture that will unprovocatively change her mind.

my partner's cousin's partner is obsessed with Glasgow Rangers and of course all the accompanying sectarian chat. He is very right-wing. He is also 18 and his social life consists of travelling across Scotland to watch games. I think for him it's about the drinking and the community spirit, and from that he's developed some *interesting opinions* on a lot of things but mainly Catholics and Muslims. I'm not particularly close to him and so I don't have the opportunity to challenge him on it regularly, instead we do a lot of awkward squirming when we hear the conversation steer in any direction. I wish I could say something to him but the family dynamic isn't right for it to be my place.

my brother has had a lot of problems in his life - he took our parents splitting up hard and we've had other issues. At 13 he was drinking and smoking weed, and spent ten years moving through various uppers and downers as habits before deciding to get clean... which led to a gambling addiction to replace the substance abuse. He's moved on from all that and keeps himself occupied by drumming in a band he joined who recruited him via an online ad. The guys in the band are all in their 50s where my brother is not yet 30. They're a typical skinhead oi! band who sing songs about vigilante paedophile hunters. In other words my brother has joined a right-wing band. I don't think he ever realised because, by his own admission, politics isn't his thing. But he says things like "I don't think Tommy Robinson is racist, just Islamaphobic and that's understandable" and we've had full-on arguments in the pub over it. With my brother it's different - I know he's better than this and he's just so easily led astray. It's not an excuse - he chooses to invest time with these people who feed his head full of nonsense, and he says these things out loud by himself - but it's hard to stand back and let him just fall into this utter shit and I struggle to not fight him on it constantly, even though I know it does no good whatsoever.

The lack of a proper dad figures a lot into it for me, complex situation but the lack of a proper structure growing up, with no underlying feelings of security or safety, I think factored in a lot into wanting a black and white world of certainty where things are what they appear to be, and not unnecessarily complicated. So therefore, If you cant touch it then it doesn't exist and the people that are saying these things, are just trying to muddy the waters and deflect from what is obvious to them (no different to when people use overly flowery words that aren't appropriate to a situation and it feels like they are playing a trick) - a desire not for 'simpler times' but for solidity and certainty. 'Just get things done and stop whinging about it'

Some crossover with the 'masculinity' thread maybe?, which I haven't even looked at, but in terms of solidity and structure in the house growing up, and what happens if thats not something you can rely on.

This is why sometimes the things that sound like somebody else's words being parroted, is true! They are someone else's words, tried and tested with 28 million views on youtube or twitter or whatever. Those words appear solid, they got a million likes, then they got attacked which led to a million more likes, the security and certainty of being on the right side of a battle, knowing where you stand. Discussion and debate, and talking about stuff - these are all things which weaken that worked-for certainty, not strengthen it, so why would they want to open the door to all that again?

there's a difference between productive conversation and changing worldviews. discussions can be productive in that they develop and reinforce views or give a sense of purpose or engagement to the participants without being agreeable or polite or whatever (obv you can also get some of this from singing hymns, watching the worst youtube videos, or engaging w all sorts of culture that involves language; debate is not a totally unique activity imo). this will always happen down fault lines bc that's how discourse works.

but yeah in terms of changing ppl's minds I think it's best approached obliquely initially. humour is important, not so much in terms of witty takedowns or w/e but more just being good humoured, being yourself and being relaxed. more than anything I increasingly think that just being open and visible about what you believe makes a difference. seeing ppl thoughtfully and good-naturedly espousing their views grounds and humanises things, esp if they seem more appealing than yr radgy online culture warriors

As a general thing, people need to be reminded that the extent to which their own demographic info overlaps with that of a cisgender white Christian American male without some sort of physical or mental disability is the extent to which their problems are probably largely of their own making.

I know I know, the US, but the not seeing money/class in the list is very odd - Mark Zuckerberg's problems are more of his making than those of a coal miner - or those of the coal miner's teenage son, right?

Mo' money, mo' problems, iirc.

Yes, of course there are a myriad of other factors that open doors for people and allow them to create whole new sets of problems for themselves. And a lack of money, education, etc. definitely make for bigger hurdles, but the fact remains that those arenas are far more easily navigable for the demographics I mentioned.

aren't we talking a bit past each other when some ppl are mentioning problems like depression and addiction, but the comicsgate grievances are more "straight white men can't find jobs/representation in the comics industry any more"?

Like I can totally get being upset at anyone minimizing these issues, no matter how privileged the person affected, but when it comes to "discrimination" in the comics industry Old Lunch is totally OTM