Is the Guardian worse than it used to be?

Scottish Nationalists love to tell you their brand of nationalism is different because it's about escaping from Tory rule and into the arms of the SNP's socialist-leaning policies. And in a way, they're right, but at it's core, it's still about creating a divide between People Like Us and People Like Them. I hate nationalism because so many times in my life I've been a Them and not an Us and it's the worst. I hate that people think closing the border and protecting our own is a morally better position than having our 55 MPs in Parliament making it difficult for the Tory Government to easily enact all the cuts and policies they would like to.

^wtf, jeezo.

Being part of the United Kingdom is already establishing a People Like Us vs People Like Them though, no? It's how nation states work at this juncture, and I'm not convinced being in a larger piece of land automatically makes that less pronounced (China and the US are two obvious counter-examples).

i think the European-style 19th century Romantic nation-states probably do breed a different style of nationalism but it's obviously not their exclusive domain

i don't think there's much of a "what is to be done?" here as long as nation-states/representative democracies/evil empires exist in their current forms - nationalism is woven deep into the fabric of what made these things what they are

and obviously it's easy and natural for every human being to care about the human beings close to them and treat the ones that are as lesser, weird and disposable. so all is for the best.

"the ones that aren't" i mean

Scottish Nationalists love to tell you their brand of nationalism is different because it's about escaping from Tory rule and into the arms of the SNP's socialist-leaning policies. And in a way, they're right, but at it's core, it's still about creating a divide between People Like Us and People Like Them. I hate nationalism because so many times in my life I've been a Them and not an Us and it's the worst. I hate that people think closing the border and protecting our own is a morally better position than having our 55 MPs in Parliament making it difficult for the Tory Government to easily enact all the cuts and policies they would like to.

i don't even know where to start with this but it saddens me and baffles me in equal measure. the only border that's being put up is as a result of england and wales voting scotland and northern ireland out of the european union. 55 westminster mps don't make anything hard for a tory government. they can't and they especially can't if the opposition party decides to e.g. abstain on a welfare bill that will plunge tens of thousands of people further into abject poverty. the united kingdom is utterly f'king toxic.

On the other hand, Saturday's march features a giant banner from Siol Nan Gaidheal front and centre. An organisation started by one of the Settler Watch guys and formally expelled from the SNP umbrella by Gordon Wilson as "proto-fascists" but now seemingly on the good guys list because 'my enemy's enemy' and all that.

Today in the Guardian, a very friendly and flattering piece ahead of UK tour dates by this guy

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2018/may/08/jeff-dunham-offensive-puppets-voice-trumps-america-achmed-dead-terrorist-jose-mexican-immigrant

Presume all anyone needs to know is contained in url there

I don't think the url quite captures the awestruck sycophancy, but aside from that yes, it does.

Scottish Nationalists love to tell you their brand of nationalism is different because it's about escaping from Tory rule and into the arms of the SNP's socialist-leaning policies. And in a way, they're right, but at it's core, it's still about creating a divide between People Like Us and People Like Them. I hate nationalism because so many times in my life I've been a Them and not an Us and it's the worst. I hate that people think closing the border and protecting our own is a morally better position than having our 55 MPs in Parliament making it difficult for the Tory Government to easily enact all the cuts and policies they would like to.

assuming you know fine well that Scottish nationalist political groupings are less xenophobic and more open to immigration than the unionist parties in Scotland. And that the unionist parties, especially the tories, but also labour, are also nationalist parties in their own way. Tories being hugely jingoistic british nationalists, xenophobic, anti-irish and anti-refugee, and labour being in favour of leaving the single market and fucking over EU citizens in the UK.

On the other hand, Saturday's march features a giant banner from Siol Nan Gaidheal front and centre. An organisation started by one of the Settler Watch guys and formally expelled from the SNP umbrella by Gordon Wilson as "proto-fascists" but now seemingly on the good guys list because 'my enemy's enemy' and all that.

― Bimlo Horsewagon became Wheelbarrow Horseflesh (aldo), Tuesday, May 8, 2018 9:56 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there might be merit in having physically assaulted the SNG activists and huckled them from the rally which would have been the alternative to them marching, but I'm sure you can see why that might have been a difficult option.

there were islamists marching in the anti-iraq war march in glasgow in 2003, i suppose anyone who was part of that should be tarred by that brush as well?

Saturday wasn't the first example of them still being part of 'team indy', they posed for photos with Salmond in 2014 for example and Sturgeon gave a thumbs up on Twitter to a photo of their banner this weekend. Phillipa Whiteford and Joanna Cherry both photographed with them in Glasgow Green after the march. They've been actively courted. Or there's Sonja Cameron, vetted in as a councillor in Stirling last year despite having been an active member of the SNLA and Settler Watch.

The party and their supporters aren't any different to any other party and supporters, and indulging in thoughts that they're any kind of special chosen people is just another shade of bigotry (as is 'we are all like this, you are all like that').

im not an SNP supporter, but "there are fringey loons among affiliated with this party" is something that can be said about all the major political parties in the uk. forgive me for the whatabouttery

also forgive the awful failure of english language that has just occurred with that last post

That's my point.

i say this as a non-Scot so if it's nonsense excuse me but it's struck me since before the referendum that there's a sizeable chunk of the Scottish electorate for who the "nationalist" bit of the SNP is the least important/attractive thing about them?

Then what is?

If it's EU membership, for example, the official position is to be part of the single market but not join without total reform of the CFP.

even before Brexit became a thing i'd've thought part of the USP was an escape from the endless cycle of Tory and Tory Labour governments that the UK looked locked into

i’ve voted snp in the past despite being at best agnostic about independence purely because they were the most leftwing party on the ballot at those points in time

the N stands for national not nationalist.

what's it going to take for snp-backing ilxors to vote labour

unmarked bills in a manila envelope and lots of em

pm me for my po box details

... but not Scottish money (xp)

well obv, i got knocked back from buying a fucking mr whippy the last time i was in london cuz i tried to pay with a clydesdale bank note

well obv, i got knocked back from buying a fucking mr whippy the last time i was in london cuz i tried to pay with a clydesdale bank note

twice

see fuckin ilx won't even let me post about scottish bank notes properly

melgibsoninbraveheart.jpg

obviously in the future the new nationalism will be based on voluntary communities of people who come together using the internet to create a state that oh wait

time for a newly-independent scotland to get on the blockchain and start mining scotcoins

what's it going to take for snp-backing ilxors to vote labour

― ogmor, Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:23 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

labour party to be less shit

i actually attempted to vote labour last election but didn't send my postal ballot in time - snp won handily in my constituency in any case. funnily enough i used to vote snp in the constituency when it was a safe labour seat. basically don't have me vote for you if you want to win.

Labour Party is less shit but I imagine the Scottish Labour Party still is.

... shit, that is. Or shite, if you prefer.

Trident is a problem for me i must admit.

I mean, the labour party has become much more democratic and leftwing, if independence isn't the be all and end all I don't see the appeal of the SNP

a lot of labour's policies are still bobbins and aren't better than the SNP's

also independence isn't the be all and end all but labour have never consistently polled ahead of these tories, meaning we're likely stuck with them another decade. we're tied into brexit, which we didn't vote for, and which labour, for political reasons, isn't opposing or facing in a robust manner.

we've spoken a bit about it elsewhere but the appeal of labour is the extent to which it is and could be more than a parliamentary party, and it's moving in a promising direction, it just seems deeply pessimistic to spurn the only realistic chance the country has had for a proper leftwing govt in my lifetime. if I had a convenient alternative political dream I cld fuck the rest of the country off to pursue I'd be tempted too, but as it is it reminds me of school when the girls wanted to go to an all-girls school to be rid of the shittiest boys and you're just left pulling that facial expression wishing them all the best

that ignores the fact that the uk is deeply structurally flawed, in that as a unitary state it is actually designed to benefit the south east of england and the rest is left to rot, quite deliberately.

(and there's no appetite for a real devo max/federalism type of situation)

the uk has no real end to deep structural flaws but I can't see a reason to be optimistic that devolution or independence would help address the most pernicious of them, it all just seems like different ways of trying to limit the number of people fucked over by tory southern england rather than offer a real change of power

I think the reputation of Glasgow’s Labour councillors probably helps the SNP out quite a lot.

... not just Glasgow btw.

it all just seems like different ways of trying to limit the number of people fucked over by tory southern england rather than offer a real change of power

Seems like that to me too.

ogmor, this is such a weird argument to me. what's in it for us lol?

i vote for the SNP because i hate the United Kingdom!

the labour party remains pretty shocking locally across much of the uk but the battles within the labour party feel v winnable and I don't see any other political project in the country to feel more optimistic about

brexit and everyone having to hedge their bets while the can is kicked and we wait for the first concrete disaster to manoeuvre around does really fuck things

Arguably the problems with labour's position on Brexit are rooted in the broader structural fuckedness of the UK, and a fully remain Labour doesn't seem likely to resolve that issue for Scotland at the moment