Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

sciatica has been way otm itt

i feel like a lot of people just ... stop growing at a certain point. there's only so much energy an outsider can spare to try to kickstart new growth in a person when that person has decided they're done.

yep

I truly believe that these guys are involuntarily celibate - not sure why we should bother questioning that.

yeah i mean the problem is that this isn't a useful way to define anything. are they this way because they don't view seeing a sex worker as a solution (nb i'm not advocating for that as a "solution," just using an exampe)? because they want a real emotional/romantic connection in addition to sex? because no one who they see as an 8/10 or better will fuck them?

there are lots of reasons why people don't get laid. it's only when some of them self-organize into a "community" that we start to see this term being used, and it's irreconcilably tied together with violent misogynist beliefs, so i disagree with any attempt to legitimize it.

they need a new word because the definition of celibicacy includes a voluntary abstention from the pursuit of sex

the word choice is deliberate, though, because claiming their celibacy was “forced” would imply specific entities were in control. it’s kept pretty nebulous because seeing the whole situation as a culmination of societal forces divorces them from admitting any flaw in their personal sense of agency

xpost — seen a bit of chatter from female sex workers on the twitter about how they *really* would rather not have the asshole women hating incels come to them because they are assholes that’d treat them like shit and that is of course an absolutely frightening position to be in

(as opposed to the shy/awkward/anxious/low social skills incels that genuinely want connection with a lady)

the only solution for the dangerous asshole incels is proper counselling and exposure to polite society but just cannot see that happening

the word choice is deliberate, though, because claiming their celibacy was “forced” would imply specific entities were in control. it’s kept pretty nebulous because seeing the whole situation as a culmination of societal forces divorces them from admitting any flaw in their personal sense of agency

this argument - that 'incels' blame women for their inability to get laid and/or form romantic relationships to avoid blaming the real culprit, i.e. themselves - both of these worldviews seem to take it for granted that there must be *someone* to blame, that there's some kind of moral dimension to whether you can get laid or not - if you can't get laid it's either because you are morally lacking or if you don't think you're morally lacking then an injustice has been done to you. But I think the fact that some people will be rejects in terms of sex and relationships is just an unfortunate, unfixable fact, no one is necessarily to blame for that.

the word choice is deliberate, though, because claiming their celibacy was “forced” would imply specific entities were in control.

I don't think this follows? even if their celibacy is involuntary that doesn't require specific entities to be in control, just impersonal amoral forces. like epigone says you can't redistribute sex like you redistribute money, there's no unfair authority that incels can legitimately target their rage and resentment at for denying them what they want, but I don't think that means (as a lot of ppl suggest) that they should therefore target that rage at themselves instead - for one thing it seems like they already do target rage and resentment towards themselves, but also there doesn't have to be anyone to blame, their inability to get laid can just be a morally neutral fact

when ppl make the argument that the problem isn't these guys inability to get laid, it's that they are entitled enough to feel they *deserve* to get laid - I mean this is true, but in the sense that no-one 'deserves' sex or love, and whether you get those things has nothing to do with how 'deserving' you are - but I feel like a lot of ppl saying the problem is entitlement frame it in a way that suggests that the incels are not sufficiently deserving compared to the ppl who do get sex and romantic relationships, that they haven't earned the right to sex, unlike the deserving sex-havers - that some ppl deserve sex, just not you.

I think most people who aren't consumed by self-hatred feel at some level like they deserve to be loved and desired, or at least feeling you deserve this is necessary to feel good about yourself, the validation of being desired by someone else. How can you not be bummed out by the realisation that no-one desires you, that you have been assessed and found wanting in this fundamental measure of human worth? I think it's ok to feel unhappy about being in that predicament, and I don't think it helps to say "the problem isn't that you are an unloved reject, the problem is that you are arrogant enough to think that you should be anything more than an unloved reject, that you should have the kind of romantic/sexual relationships that the overwhelming majority of your peers have". The problem is when these 'incels' construct some imaginary authority that is denying them what they want, because that authority doesn't exist

Yes, agree with that very much, but would add that while there isn't an authority to blame, there is a (patriarchal) society which fails to equip them with the required skills to get by in life, which is an obvious point of course, but one which is apparently ignored by incels and incel-haters alike.

Soref go watch a John Waters movie or two and then we can continue this conversation.

― sciatica, Saturday, April 28, 2018 9:02 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I feel oddly wounded by this because I love John Waters movies and I'm worried that I've betrayed the spirit of John Waters

There is a pretty frustrating thing happening here, which is that some pf us are trying to explain what 'incels' are saying, and why it doesn't make sense, and then people like soref are pointing out what we say does not make sense, but blaming us. It's so facile to conclude that something is 'ignored by incels and incel-haters alike.' Let me assure you, it's not. But these misogynist women-killers ARE A PART of the patriarchy, so we don't see them as victims.

I've been writing and reading about PUAhaters for more than a year at this point, and them finding women at fault for is a central part of the ideology. One guy wrote about his hatred that a 'deal' was broken, because he was working to help the environment, he was a good guy, and therefore women should want him. That was the agreement, so that he still got rejected must mean that feminism was a lie and had to be fought.

It's not about a lack of sex, as much as it's about a loss of sexual status that has come with modern sexual mores, where women are allowed to act on their own attraction.

Of course they are a part of the patriarchy, but of course the patriarchy has created their problems in the first place, in that sense they are some of its victims - not its worst victims obviously, but the patriarchy has certainly not worked out well for them. Their ridiculous 'ideology' is beside the point - these are fundamentally damaged people who are lashing out.
There seems to be a thread of almost libertarian "personal responsibility for actions" stuff going on in this discussion which I think we would be uncomfortable with if talking about more obviously sympathetic people.

Contrary, if people were complaining that Dylann Roof should also be seen as a victim of white supremacy, we would be upset. 'Obviously sympathetic', we're talking about a mass murder comitted a few days ago.

Agreed. Teasing out the sociopolitical climate and speculating on the personal circumstances which produce incels, is entirely beside the point. Other people live in the same society under similar conditions and react differently to their lot in life. These people are simply ugly misogynists and should be treated as such. Trying to "understand" is like explaining racism on the basis of poor treatment by people of other races, or a society in which inequities are reinforced. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Misogyny is WRONG, I don't give a fuck how you justify it to yourself or how you got there.

Yes, all of these things cannot be addressed simply on a level of personal responsibility, is that a controversial view?

I kind of think it does matter, at least on a psychological/sociological level, why some people go this way and others don't, not just incels but other misogynist (or racist/homophobic) groups or individuals. If there is anything to be learned about how to stop this. Although it's probably fair to say a bunch of ilxors aren't necessarily going to be ones who come up with the magic solution.

fwiw the term "involuntarily celibate" wasn't invented by these people, it predates the internet, I remember seeing it in NME or Melody Maker in the early 90s as an insult to heavy metal and unfashionable indie fans.

I mostly agree with MatthewK, but I also want to underline that I have in fact spent a lot of time reading about 'sociopolitical climate' vs 'personal circumstances' with people like this, and it's based on that that I say the thing that sets them apart from people just in generally frustrated about their sex lives is a fundamental inability to see women as human beings.

Well yes, this is misogyny. It's not an "inability", otherwise it would extend to men as well.

There is a pretty frustrating thing happening here, which is that some pf us are trying to explain what 'incels' are saying, and why it doesn't make sense, and then people like soref are pointing out what we say does not make sense, but blaming us. It's so facile to conclude that something is 'ignored by incels and incel-haters alike.' Let me assure you, it's not. But these misogynist women-killers ARE A PART of the patriarchy, so we don't see them as victims.

― Frederik B, Sunday, 29 April 2018 08:51 (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ah fred, fred, fred

dont blame me the next time you get 5h1tcanned out of here, have a good long hard look at the stinking attitude towards other ppl on the board that you so often toss out for absolutely no reason in posts like this.

i feel like a lot of people just ... stop growing at a certain point. there's only so much energy an outsider can spare to try to kickstart new growth in a person when that person has decided they're done.

― you bet, nancy (map)

you can't kickstart them but kicking them is always an option

x-post: Well, speaking of posts with no reason to exist, you can quite honestly take your concern trolling and fuck right off, deems. I know what I'm doing, mate.

toxic masculinity and femininity itt, oh dear

Something Just1ne said is being mostly overlooked here I think re her brother in law, and a thing is happening that happens a lot here which is that ppl are identifying with negative stereotypes and trying to have compassion for them bc we feel we are or were or might have been similarly afflicted

Nah. This shit is not that complicated. Self professed incels think they’re entitled to sex with whichever women they find attractive, without, as Just1ne said, bringing anything to the table themselves. These men may not even be UNattractive, at least physically. Elliot Roger was objectively quite pretty. This guy in Toronto has a great face, looks nice. They’re not genetic victims with resting sad face, whatever the f that means. People much, much less “attractive” than them find partners every day.

Ime guys with an incel-shaped axe to grind don’t want a partner who wants them back. They want a conquest—the hottest, most socially desirable woman they know or can imagine, to be sexually available to them as a sign of their value and worthiness. A woman from their circles who likes the same stuff, is hypothetically nerdy or w/e but not a “10,” isn’t good enough because sexually conquering her isn’t a sign of their supreme unrecognized inner awesomeness. Incel members don’t care that women are people. They don’t want people, they want game counters.

in orbit OTM. The distinguishing trait of these dudes isn't loneliness; it's sadism.

you guys made me google incel. thanks? reminded me of this mad flexi i had as a kid. i always felt weird playing it. first song about male sexual frustration to have a star wars reference in it. for the record.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GSxbW89tQ8

in orbit super otm

jesus christ that song is long

in orbit!! thank you for writing that

i agree with io, with a few caveats. i don't think all incels are fully conscious of their own motivations - it feels like a scene where there's a lot of sulky, unreflective blame to go around and i doubt many of them could articulate that what they want is for their choice of sexual partner. i'm not sure it's always consciously about alpha point-scoring either, i feel like other factors might be their unrealistic perception of romantic relationships and the opposite sex thru a steady diet of one-dimensional culture (including porn obv) and a culture that's never encouraged them to cultivate friendly, equal relationships with the opposite sex. also they belong to a consumer culture that has taught them a sense of entitlement to gratification.

that's not really different to what you're saying io, just pulling some more threads out of it i think. in the end these dolts choose the company they keep and choose the attitudes they adopt. i don't believe anybody accidentally gets tricked into hating indiscriminate swathes of strangers because of who they are or what they believe they represent. if people feel personal responsibility for somebody they know irl who's like this then good for you but i don't think they have serious demands that need to be addressed by society any more than a toddler throwing a tantrum in a toyshop does.

in orbit you are consistently a great poster thank you

in orbit (& upper miss re: in orbit) otm. the mgtow view of how sex works, especially, is an explicit confirmation of how these bros think about sex0r

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/03/23/there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-woman-good-at-sex-part-1-in-a-new-series-mgtows-explain-sex/

WHTM is a very good resource on this horrible shit

Thanks in orbit for articulating that. I was trying to formulate a response to just1ne's post but instead became exasperated by recalling all the men I have encountered on that type of spectrum.

Reading some stuff on incels.me, there was one dude saying that having frizzy hair was a good game never getting laid ever predicament. In my experience, lots of people love frizzy hair.

Let’s all think more about these guys

Great posts from Camaraderie at Arms Length and soref in here.

I think in orbit is absolutely right about what makes some of us want to understand these guys--certainly in my case I think "I've had my share of prolonged loneliness and sexual frustration, and I spend too much time online, so why didn't I ever go this way?" It's tempting to think that the answer is just that I'm a better, less misogynistic person. But I don't think it's that simple.

So I'm reluctant to say that the incel subculture is JUST garden-variety woman-hating, though of course it is substantially that. If that's all it was, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. They take it to a distinctively poisonous and intractable place, and I can't help but wonder how they get there.

And when I examine it, I recognize that underneath the mile-thick layer of bile, there's some quite understandable frustration at the way that success in sex and love can be affected by things like conventional physical attractiveness, adherence to gender roles, race, social class, ability, and mental health. Incels seize on this unfairness, and use it as the basis for their conspiratorial misogynist worldview. A lot of what I suspect is their most psychologically effective rhetoric comes from presenting themselves as the only people who are willing to acknowledge it.

But so often people respond to them not (or not only) by pointing out the absurdity and repulsiveness of the overall worldview, but by ignoring, downplaying, or outright denying that this fundamental unfairness exists at all. This plays right into their hands, because it does exist, and when we're not talking about incels, we all know it. I take soref and CAAL to be cautioning against this tendency.

Then again, I can't blame anyone for not caring at all what self-described incels think about anything. It's a little disturbing to me that I care as much as I do.

Once we fully engage with incels and understand the sources and nature of their grievances against women and against society in general, surely we shall obtain the key to arguing them out of their unreasonable position and healing the rift between them and the rest of us, right?

I don't think I or anyone else is arguing that we need to engage with or compromise with these people.

But so often people respond to them not (or not only) by pointing out the absurdity and repulsiveness of the overall worldview, but by ignoring, downplaying, or outright denying that this fundamental unfairness exists at all.

Horseshit.

It happens all the time. It's happened in this thread.

in orbit’s contributions very appreciated

I think what I meant by the term having a vagueness is that while some of these dudes have hate directed toward specific women, that’s not the way they speak.

It’s seldom a story about a particular woman who has rejected them, it’s this blaming of a society. It’s why the violent acts seem like (or are) terrorism: it’s violence against people they don’t even know. Having a personal interaction with an individual is something you could break down and actually exercise a sense of introspection. Painting their personal situations as a result of societal forces divorces their views from a sense of personal agency

I don't think I or anyone else is arguing that we need to engage with or compromise with these people.

Until they begin to organize militias and make organized attacks on society, as opposed to these unpredictable, and therefore unpreventable, random attacks, I don't see much point in making a deep dive into how they think or dissecting their rhetoric, as if that will lead to anything other than transforming our ignorance and confusion into knowledge and contempt. But, don't let me stop those who find this conversation worth spinning out. I came. I read. I commented. I'm leaving the rest to others.

it’s dumb and ironic that a lot of these people overlap with racist communities, or those that hate people needing economic support, because those are groups that actually are at a disadvantage because of societal forces

again, not universal because some incel types latch on to that connection, but the majority are white males

these acts are only unpredictable if no one monitors these communities, because the recent attackers not only engaged in online dialogue at an increasing intensity, they tend to upload videos or leave manifestos before their attacks. and people in the communities encourage them

Until they begin to organize militias and make organized attacks on society, as opposed to these unpredictable, and therefore unpreventable, random attacks, I don't see much point in making a deep dive into how they think or dissecting their rhetoric, as if that will lead to anything other than transforming our ignorance and confusion into knowledge and contempt. But, don't let me stop those who find this conversation worth spinning out. I came. I read. I commented. I'm leaving the rest to others.

― A is for (Aimless)

i think it's more likely that we'll see a convergence of this mindset into the existing militia mindset, particularly as militia types start having to face up to the lysistrata effect. right now the nra is at war with gamers, to the general advantage of humanity, but i have a hard time seeing this war as an eternal one.

"So I'm reluctant to say that the incel subculture is JUST garden-variety woman-hating, though of course it is substantially that. If that's all it was, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. They take it to a distinctively poisonous and intractable place, and I can't help but wonder how they get there."

thousands of hours of online porn?

if internet porn made one intractably misogynist there would be a lot more misogyny about right now.

boy I'll say