Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

just looking for some redistribution along this axis amirite

I had to look Robin Hanson because I was like, no fucking way a well adjusted woman would write this.

whoever that asshole is they really can't be pilloried enough for that take

His credentials make his hot take so much worse.

Just heard about Incels today. Took a long time to be convinced that it was a real organized movement. Very similar to how I still don't REALLY believe there are flat-earthers.

yeah sometimes I do wonder if the flatearther thing is mostly trolling. But not incels/mgtows.

I was ignorant of incels until mookie's post here.

I'm not gonna delve into incel world.

But for anyone who has delved--do incels masturbate? Fantasize? Use porn? Feel sexually aroused, think about it, feel it?

If so, they don't consider this a sex life?

there is a 'no fap' movement, not sure how large the convergence is between that and inceldom but of course there is a subreddit about it. at least no fap has shades of self help to it as opposed to the nihilism of incels?

ugh, it's friday night and i'm posting about this stuff, what am i doing. well at least there will probably be a MGTOW faction of the GOP in ten years so maybe i'm doing my civic duty here

lol shades of self help that's gold

can they get a ted talk going too

they literally think masturbation is ruining their life. hey, who knows??? maybe it is for them, i dunno

Instead of fapping, I went for a walk. Feels awesome to be alive! (i.redd.it)

submitted an hour ago by EvolvingSoul1 Day

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AFAICT the strictly r/nofap people are relatively innocuous but I'm sure there's some venn diagram type overlap

But for anyone who has delved--do incels masturbate? Fantasize? Use porn? Feel sexually aroused, think about it, feel it?

If so, they don't consider this a sex life?

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, April 27, 2018 9:36 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

(1) With rare exceptions, yes.

(2) They don't. I think they'd be aghast at the suggestion that this constitutes a sex life in any meaningful sense.

Damn dude one can fap and walk. Not at the same time imo, but really though. It’s not an either/or thing. These ppl.

I don't think there's very much incel/nofap crossover. Gotta keep your online neurotic male sexual frustration subcultures straight.

Pun intended, I guess.

seems like they ought to have debates with each other

I don't understand this thread anymore, but I'm confident I'll regret it if I do the research to understand it.

my take on incels: totally immature and insane assholes, but I really do think part of the issue is that they haven’t yet been liberated from a traditional model of masculinity, which prevents them from seeing women as humans

additionally there’s a big crossover with NEETs (stemming from various social economic and mental health factors) so they don’t have any life experience and understanding of how humans work and probably their full understanding of women is based on porn

a possible solution is to give these lads a life/integrate them into polite society to understand people, but understandably nobody in polite society would want anything to do with them

this TAL episode literally made me vomit, contains "no fap" information and lots of other vile stuff https://www.thisamericanlife.org/626/white-haze

if you are old enough to masturbate and don't see women as humans, retreat from society and come back when you are ready

if you are old enough to masturbate and don't see women as humans, retreat from society and come back when you are ready

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera)

they do retreat from society - to 4chan. it's not making them more ready.

i regretted writing that -- i just do not think being completely clueless is an excuse for dehumanizing half of people
the half that i am

incels and all of these people truly make me sick and i can't be rational about it. i have no sympathy.

(for them, that is -- i am generally a sympathetic person)

Sums up my own thoughts on incels and the like: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/mass-killer-toronto-attack-man-men

yeah that gary younge article is good. these guys are victims of patriarchal logic and other ppls disgust with them is part of the fuel for their spiral

the more you hate them the worse it gets

easy to say if they are not stalking, murdering, raping you
i have a right to find their behavior sickening. they can relearn how to be a person. i am not sure how much more sympathy i can find in my heart beyond that.

to be clear i do not hate anyone
hating is not something i do

i do find their beliefs and behavior sickening, as i mentioned above. i don't think i can deal with this -- i'm sorry for entering this conversation at all. i am going to excuse myself.

if MAGA persists are we gonna get a fed safety net for blue balls?

sorry if that came off harsh or personal, I recognise the self-perpetuating hate spiral that drives this and am frustrated by the awareness that disgust, however well-founded, won't make anything any better

i think this has to be addressed probably primarily by men who are able to offer some way of being/recognition outside of the suffocatingly reductive dangerous&doomed framework they've constructed for themselves

LL these people do not deserve your pity and wouldn't accept it anyway.

A lot of shitty people are lost causes, some aren't. By extending a helping hand to the latter we ensure that the former are fewer in number. Still, I sympathise with the impossibility of empathising in this one instance.

i used to live w a no fap guy, people knew bc he was really evangelist about it. think he thought it preserved his kundalini energy or something. which tbf isn't that far off from some genine spiritual practices of worldly detachment.

but this dude was not worldly detached. he drank, smoked, had sociopathic tendencies. he used to explain with glee how he loved fucked with customers at his day job cashiering at a restaurant. during the 2008 elections we were discussing politics and he was incredulous that i was critical Mitt Romney. i asked him if he was joking and he maintained that he wasn't but at that point i was pretty sure he went through the day trying to get thrills from manipulating people w the pettiest bs.

self betterment ideologies are not that detached from 70s self help or snake oil salesman of yore. if people don't have a spiritual outlet they seek out some form of self help, there will always be that market, and people on all sides ready to take advantage.

The only way back for these men is serious psychological counseling. But since mentally ill ppl who actually ask for help can’t even get it in this country, that’s not going to happen.

Yeah, I actually do think that there is a legitimate social need for some kind of supportive online community for people who are lonely and involuntarily celibate, in the way that Alana Davis originally conceived of the concept. The way that idea has been co-opted by entitled and entirely male sociopaths might be one of the most infuriating aspects of the whole contemporary incel thing. (Second to the part where they are killing people.)

i am v sceptical of the ability of any sort of talking therapy to get ppl out of really destructive negative-thinking

these fuckers need to do community service

Yeah, I actually do think that there is a legitimate social need for some kind of supportive online community for people who are lonely

yeah you can stop there? "involuntarily celibate" as a concept contains the seeds of its own problems.

I was reading some posts from women who follow some of these incel groups and she posted one from a man who followed a 14 year old girl who was walking alone so he could be important to her and to basically freak her out. He was encouraging other incels to do this type of "low level" terrorizing to other women.

the fetishizing of any attention from women isn’t a foreign thing for “male culture” but it’s taken to an extreme

that is to say, tt’s always bad, but not nearly this hostile or toxic

Oh, it was the first comment on this jezebel article. I did a bad job of summarizing. https://jezebel.com/saint-elliot-rodger-and-the-incels-who-canonize-him-1825567815

"harmless psychological fun"

christ

This tweet is part of a whole thread that's worth reading, but this gets to the core of "relating to" or "dealing with" these worthless (non)fuckers:

"So how do we discuss this phenomenon then?" Easy -- don't discuss the dehumanizing beliefs. "Bob was spouting some horrifying incel nonsense. Did you know he actually believes -- ""I don't need to know what he believes. Bob is now persona non grata. Let's go."

— N. K. Jemisin (@nkjemisin) April 28, 2018

damn if only someone had ignored that bus attacker sooner this could all have been avoided

bus? van. whatever, i'm out

Hey, you wanna be their friend, give 'em a shoulder to cry on, that's your business. Not me.

I get the impression that a big part of the appeal of the 'incel community' is that it lets these people acknowledge the basic truth (as they see it), that there is no hope for them, that no-one could ever find them desirable in any way ; in pretty much any other community or setting there is a lot of pushback against anyone who describes themselves in those terms, both from ppl trying to be 'nice', and from ppl offended by their defeatism - you can see this from all the responses over the past few days where ppl say that incels could form sexual/romantic relationships if the put in more effort, or got a better attitude etc.

I tend to think that a lot of ppl who post to incel forums are correct to believe that there is no hope for them, that they are mostly unattractive, awkward nerds (a lot of them on the autism spectrum) who inspire a vague revulsion in other ppl, and they'll never be anything other than that regardless of what they believe or how much effort they put into bettering themselves. imo it is not helpful for their critics to deny this as it means that the only ppl who will allow them to acknowledge what they know to be the truth about themselves, will acknowledge that they are not to blame for something that is largely beyond their control, are the misogynists and murder-advocates. especially as a lot of the ppl who will rebuke these guys for describing themselves as beyond hope would agree if anyone other than the incel himself described the incel as incurably undesirable.

Yeah, I actually do think that there is a legitimate social need for some kind of supportive online community for people who are lonely and involuntarily celibate

yeah. the sex positive movement is good and empowering but it can sometimes come across "look at all the sex we are having and aren't we great for it". there is such an emphasis on this being good that it can make the opposite seem bad. imo there needs to be more asexual/non-sexual awareness, something positive to ascribe to for people that either genuinely don't care or do care and can't get laid.