"Communism sounds great on paper - it just doesn't work in reality!" = most tedious line of conversation EVER?

Not to mention displays an very complacent attitude toward capitalism as is, nullifying any marxist thought into the some of the least humour out there.

I dunno -- if you do care about the seriousness of socialism or communism as ideas, maybe you should see it as a good thing when people adopt a chuckling ancient-history stance toward some of the folks who once made it seem synonymous with mass murder, labor camps, and violent repression?

I mean, I don't want to alarm you or anything, but if people began to see Soviet or Maoist stuff as just amusing iconography and funny historical figures, that would actually be a pretty big improvement in people's favorability responses to these things

you are certainly going a long way to debunking the idea of communist sympathizers and marxists being humourless, though.

1) its not really communism as such—the "essence" of wealth redistribution & control of the means of production—thats getting lampooned & treated ironically—its "communism" specifically manifested as kitsch, i.e. propaganda & earnest soviet realism & dictator/thinker hero worship.

2) this is less about "our" collective feelings about communism specifically than it is about "our" collective feelings about "history" and "iconography"—if communism seems to be targeted more specifically its because its icons are so strong graphically/historically/etc

tbh i thought saroyan's post was going to be about how offensive it was to advertise a party with a funny picture of a mass-murdering tyrant with a party hat on.

I feel like a "communist party" would be full of bad pick-up lines about forming a "soviet union"

a specter is haunting this party--the specter of dat ass

Apparat dat chik

lets seize control of our own means of production back at my apartment

gangstas unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains. oh.

I'm gonna prole-tear that ass up

this party will repeat itself, the first time as a tragedy, the second time... as a porno!!

from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs, and baby, i need you

Anyone who knows anything of history knows that great social changes are impossible without feminine upheaval.

the seas of change are certainly heaving

I realize this is about history and its icons, but they are nonetheless signifiers of an ideology, although what Marx, Stalin, the USSR, etc, point to, with the people I've encountered, is less anything about wealth, property, state control, etc. and more just an empty punchline (literally: "communism, lol").
It works both ways with people mocking say Stalin on one hand and Marx on the other. Wealth, property, repression, state control, murder, etc. never enter the equation, conveniently forgetting about the history and the thought that informs it.

Of course this isn't exclusive to communism but it having so much currency in society, and at this point in time, where these people are too young to remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, for instance (i.e. at a time where people forget the reality of history). I'm trying to not be humourless, or too agitated, since as I said I'm not so invested in leftist politics that I take it personally, I just see this as a certain brand of humour and attitude toward history and thought that's increasingly detached from reality and unaware of the gravity of say, communism's role in history, be it Marxist thought or violent tragedy. I'm also looking at this at the viewpoint of people who grew up in Soviet states or are dedicated far-leftists, as something that more than insults them but denies any right to what they have experienced and believed in.

P.S. how'd you like to get that base up in this superstructure.

yeah. well. "modernism." whatre u gonna do.

what Marx, Stalin, the USSR, etc, point to, with the people I've encountered, is less anything about wealth, property, state control, etc. and more just an empty punchline (literally: "communism, lol")

Actually w/r/t Soviet stuff, I think it's more that you now have younger adults whose memories of Soviet images are largely based around late Cold War stuff like bad 80s action movies and this seemingly Important Threat that had sort of evaporated by the time they were old enough to care -- this is a recipe for jokes, insofar as "late Soviet images," in addition to meaning historical stuff, also wind up filed in about the same mental place as the Thundercats and Alf

Kind of repeating myself here, but given that up until recently common people associated things like Stalin/the USSR with gulags, mass murder, repression, an Evil Empire, a mortal threat to our way of life, etc., surely "LOL communism" is a public-perception improvement? I mean if that had been the general attitude a few decades back, all those HUAC hearings would have more fun and hilarious for everyone involved

you know, you can't spell marx w/o M - A - X

Perhaps wise Doctor Casino will furnish us with examples of Communism having worked in practice.

― Dingbod Kesterson, Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:48 AM (9 months ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I'm always ready for a good gulag joke.

perhaps wise Dom will read the thread and figure out that's not the point i was trying to make

homie

dont play me like that

girl, i will bury you

I own that t-shirt that Edward linked to. idk, I like it. I don't think making a joke that the Communist Party could be a Communist party is anti-leftist, and I definitely think someone like Emma Goldman would approve of the sentiment. There's nothing wrong with having fun with the ideas, and the shirt doesn't undermine anything (unless it's in the sense that you have to exchange monies to get it). If anything, I've had more people think I was sympathetic with radical leftist ideas because of the shirt, than in spite of it.

I'm also looking at this at the viewpoint of people who grew up in Soviet states or are dedicated far-leftists, as something that more than insults them but denies any right to what they have experienced and believed in.

idk mayne the ppl i've met (including during the 80s) who lived in communiss countries really fkn hated living under it. i will ask if people going 'lol communism' denies them the right to what they have experienced, but i reckon they'd say 'buck the fuck up, what does that even mean?' i suppose they 'experienced' living under the russian imperium but didn't really 'believe in it' :/

i don't "get" constructivism, but that whole thing, in design and whatnot -- kind of creepy? a little bit imo. graphic designers, architecture students, etc, not super historians ime.

BROSEPH STALIN

i'm having trouble understanding the objection to this dumm tshirt. like, this sentence:

"I can't imagine anything more frustrating for a committed leftist than this sort of reduction of a history of social theory and action to a petty, unaware, and outright not-funny punchline."

is incomprehensible to me. first, who give a shit? second, if i think about it for a second i CAN imagine some things more frustrating for committed leftists, many things in fact.

i think if you *do* get annoyed by it yer probably a bit weird? apart from marx and to a extent castro all of the people on the poster are total scumbags and unmitigated nogoodniks.

imo the most cogent complaints about the attitude displayed in the shirt end up being the conservative ones: "communists and communism killed millions and kept millions more in servitude and poverty, goddam kids these days think it was all a JOKE!?"

as a rough equivalent you can't have "lol nazis" shirts, something right wingers complain about in a strange way; socialism and communism is still a weak club to beat the left with, no matter how hard they try, but everyone "just knows" that fascism/nazism is uniquely evil and not jokeworthy on a public tshirt level (creepy internet level, fine). "everyone" hates the outer edges of right-wing politics, but the outer edges of left-wing politics are just... funny? dead and therefore... goofy? the conservative complaint is that this structural imbalance isn't "fair" which is pretty lulzy but also, i dunno, interesting, historically. talkin out my ass here.

communism has roots in the enlightenment, nazism = excuse to murder jews

sorry to be glib about it

since when can't you make jokes about nazis? Springtime for Hitler anyone? Hogan's Heroes?

hm good point

http://www.wooyayhoopla.be/hammerzeit.jpg

hey i said creepy internet nazi humor was ok

love that jpg btw

I generally agree with Swat Valley High, to hopefully clarify my point, though: past the cold-war impression of the evil communist boogyman, a lot of young people (for whatever reasons they may have) look at communism as just a punchline, conveniently moving the history of it and theory behind it off to the side. These sorts of attitudes will probably at least annoy dedicated leftists, or people who have had to live through a lot of strife, because it replaces communist thought and history to a joke. I.e. it doesn't just make fun of the idea of it, but also pacifies it, in a way different from just mocking it (where it seems like there still can be an awareness of an actual communism, not just a detached reflection of it (usually the product of the stuff nabisco mentioned upthread, which lends itself to being camped up. Which has not all that much to do with Marxism and gulags, for instance).

Also, I just got the communist-party-as-a-party-joke, so that makes a lot more sense now. I'm not going to criticize you for that shirt, the concert poster I saw yesterday with that image for a background on the other hand. . . (also keep in mind, this is mostly based of pretty specific experience with people I've encountered, who aren't to smart to begin with).

you really think making a joke about communism completely trivializes it?

i mean, couldn't you say that about humourous takes on ANYTHING?

yes and no. I mean certain attitudes behind jokes appear to be more trivializing.

This might be a bit obvious, but if part of your complaint is that people just don't take communism seriously enough as a valid ideology, my response might be that it is sort of up to an ideology to justify itself to people, not the other way around

in america 'dedicated leftists' doesn't suggest 'communist' anymore. this is a good thing...above all for 'dedicated leftists' who want to be taken seriously.

rather, somebody could be a chomsky-reading-hardcore leftist stereotype and still wear/enjoy that t-shirt. how many real marxists are left to be offended by this?? I don't know any and I spend my life in berkeley+san francisco.

does it have to be offensive though? I just think it's a trivializing attitude, on the part of certain people, not necessarily these shirts on their own.

as an economic system, yes, communism has been pretty universally trivialized.

as a GIGANTIC part of 20th century history, I can't imagine it will ever be.

I don't really get your complaint since "lol communism" really entails laughing at the socialist regimes of past and present that were and are really pretty terrible. I am glad Lenin, Stalin etc. are now figures of fun, because they shouldn't be figures of admiration.

On the other hand what this kind of thing does not make fun of, and shouldn't, is certain Marxian concepts, approach to history and society that takes in to consideration economic factors as well as individual agency of politicians and diplomats, the socialist inspired labour movements and workers' rights etc.

One side of my family is in parts very far left-wing, and many of the family friends of my parents were committed socialists/communists. My uncle is a trotskyist and lived in Cuba in the 70s after being exiled from Chile. Two of my cousins grew up for similar reasons in the GDR (and hated it of course). etc. etc. The ones of these who have retained their far-left politics are all very sympathetic and I believe are in it for good reasons. However I am glad that their extreme politics are now discredited and that now their politics are only really reflected in good things: activism that promotes social justice and supports the labour movement, minorities and LGBT rights etc.

yes and no. I mean certain attitudes behind jokes appear to be more trivializing.

― Edward Saroyan, Friday, May 22, 2009 9:11 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i don't get it. you're angry on the behalf of hypothetical communist sympathizers who might not like jokes at stalin's expense because it trivializes marx's ideology? i mean seriously, who is giving marxism a worse name here, stalin or lol jokes people?

i feel like u are kind of trolling here saroyan