Is this anti-semitism?

daily mail says they’re a hate filled group who mock judaism tho so

Disgusting from Corbyn. He should not be mocking Judaism by raising a beetroot in the air and shouting "fuck capitalism." pic.twitter.com/wlP90mn4lZ

— heartbeeps (@hrtbps) April 4, 2018

but it doesn't speak well of anyone's intellect i think who finds useful allies among holocaust deniers or fundamentalist actually militant organizations

Sure but weighed against his counterparts and their equivalent mistakes and bad judgements plus the demonstrably absurd 'mainstream' bias, asking 'Corbyn seems stupid why do people love him' just doesn't seem amount to much.

he isn't particularly sensitive to anti-Semitism

This is probably true, I suspect you might have to develop a tin ear to mix in the company he's mixed in most of his political life, I couldn't have done it. Also he isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

one depressing thing about all this is in the last week there did seem to be a shift where Corbyn supporters who were previously reluctant to acknowledge any kind of anti-semitism problem in Labour were coming out and saying that there was a serious issue, and that the left and Corbyn personally had not done enough to challenge it, there was some pushback from Corbyn supporters against other Corbyn supporters who were suggesting that it's all a right-wing smear campaign etc - and then there's this attack from Guido that is so incompetent and mendacious that the conversation has shifted back to how terrible the anti-Corbyn media is (which is true and a legit point to make in this particular instance imo, and like Tom says a lot of Jewish commentators who are generally v critical of Corbyn have been offended and angry at the way Guido and the Mail etc have portrayed Jewdas, but is does seem to have killed some of the momentum in dealing with the genuine anti-semitism on the left?)

this is from their website and what gives me pause:

Written in Yiddish (which turned out to be a far older, more authentic language than Hebrew), it teaches of the great radicalism of Jewish tradition, a tradition of dreamers, subversives, cosmopolitans and counter-culturalists. It waxes lyrical on the virtues of cosmopolitanism, putting loyalty to ideas of international justice over tribalism and parochialism, and attacks the opressiveness of the ‘natural’ in favour of ethics designed to meet the face of the other. It preaches of the need to widen Judaism beyond the boundaries of those born Jewish, towards an ethic of wider concern, a Judaism that might at times stand in critique of the Jews. It prophesised a rise of ‘international subversives’ who would undermine power wherever they found themselves, who would preach veganism, pacifism and pickled cucumbers.

none of that is bad but it is a break w/ jewish community as a collective by intention

ok uk ppl who don't actually care about jewishness or antisemitism please stop posting here it's not helpful for you or anyone else

asking 'Corbyn seems stupid why do people love him' just doesn't seem amount to much.

who is even saying this? i know why ppl love stupid politicians. our POTUS is Donald Trump. what does it have to do w/ any of the issues at hand?

soref OTM

ok uk ppl who don't actually care about jewishness or antisemitism please stop posting here it's not helpful for you or anyone else

― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 17:35 (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Heh. It's very much the issue here at the moment, so I (we) very much care about it. I've been very concerned to ask my Jewish acquaintances what they think, and none has given me an answer which demonstrates a newly anti-Corbyn opinion after this media campaign. And those who think there might be a mild problem with some of his previous opinions and affiliations also think it's way, way down the list of important factors in their and everyone else's vote.

i mean if you're concerned about antisemitism qua antisemitism or antisemitism qua labour's political chances. if it's the latter probably the uk thread is a better place to talk about how it doesn't matter or it's not a major concern and jews don't vote in such big numbers anyway.

it's striking how intelligent all of corbyn's critics are

you're the one who revived the thread with a commentary about British politics, Mordy!

I care about my Jewish friends and loathe anti-semitism; please don't tell me or others who is allowed to answer you on British political topics where you lack information and are seeking clarification.

Hamas and Hizbollah only got called 'friends' in a single meeting where many groups came together for peaceful discussion; it is part of a long-standing British legal and political tradition where one's opposite counsel/elected official in council chambers and Parliament are addressed eg. 'my right honourable friend', 'my learned friend'. British Tory politicians tried to cast aspersions on Corbyn for this but it got zero traction, probably because of this very old tradition.

like i'll agree 100% that ppl are cynically using charges of antisemitism to try and smear corbyn for electoral gain. that doesn't mean the charges are foundless (tho like i mentioned i think it's more that corbyn doesn't mind antisemites than that he personally dislikes jews).

suzy do you think corbyn would've referred to bibi netanyahu as friends?

i mean with all due respect it's so obvious to me how your opinions on these topics are driven by political necessity it's kinda lame to have to point out that he didn't refer to hamas as his friend because of political tradition.

I think a lot of the arguments about this particular event on social media etc have been fruitless b/c it's really about trust, it's not necessarily that Corbyn's critics object to him going to this event per se, but they don't trust him when he professes to believe that anti-semitism in labour is a serious problem and he is determined to work with the jewish community, and when they see him go to an event held by a group that has downplayed the significance of left-wing anti-semitism it confirms their belief that he doesn't *really* mean it?

so there are these arguments where ppl defend Corbyn on the basis that he never held up Jewdas as being representative of the jewish community as a whole, or delving into exactly what kind of position Jewdas takes on certain issues don't really schange anyone's mind because it's more about a general lack of trust in Corbyn b ased on his entire career and history rather than this one particular incident - I don't think there's any quick fix, just Labour and the left constantly showing that they do take this issue seriously over a long period of time

xp

My opinions are not at issue here. I'm sorry you don't like my answer but that's the answer you're getting.

If Netanyahu came to a meeting like the one I referenced above, he too would be called 'friend'.

lol ok when corbyn refers to Likud as "our friends" i'll accept your point

Tomorrow evening it will be my pleasure and my honour to host an event in parliament where our friends from Hezbollah will be speaking. I’d also invited friends from Hamas to come and speak as well. Unfortunately the Israelis would not allow them to travel here as well so it’s only going to be friends from Hezbollah. So far as I’m concerned that is absolutely the right function of using parliamentary facilities to invite people from other parts of the world so that we can promote that peace, that understanding and that dialogue.And the idea that an organization that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and bringing about long term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region should be labelled as a terrorist organization by the British Government is really a big, big historical mistake and I would invite the Government to reconsider its position on this matter and start talking directly to Hamas and Hezbollah, that is the only way forward.

again this is what you'd expect from an anti-imperialist who sees these groups as potential allies. it's not antisemitic imo at core. but i don't believe this is an honorific argument.

don't you only refer to them as your right honourable friend if they're from the same party as you

just to spell it out - he's explicitly advocating on behalf of hezbollah and hamas - so claiming it's just a procedural thing is disingenuous or ignorant.

Corbyn is actually into the resistance and was into the 'RA tbh. It's funny seeing people tie themselves into knots to explain these proclivities away.

It’s polite, and I took him at his word when he explained.

but is does seem to have killed some of the momentum in dealing with the genuine anti-semitism on the left?)

I think this specifically is why Momentum put out the statement they did, and why Jon Lansman and Rhea Wolfson (both NEC members) have spoken out yesterday about the need for robust action. Supposedly Jennie Formby has been tasked with overhauling the compliance process and leading on this too. If anything comes of this, let it be solid action on this.

Lansman is particularly interesting because while he and Corbyn are long term allies, he has been critical of him (deservedly so).

His relationship with Milne has been less than comradely ever since, boiling over again when he remonstrated with Corbyn and his aides about their handling of Labour’s anti-Semitism scandal. Lansman is praised by Labour moderates for his role in patiently explaining to Corbyn both what anti-Semitism is and why it is a problem on the left, and for ordering comrades to stop using ‘Zionist’ as a term of abuse. Not everyone in the leader’s office agreed.

(From https://life.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/letting-the-hard-left-off-the-leash, bit of irony when you look at the byline lol)

and when they see him go to an event held by a group that has downplayed the significance of left-wing anti-semitism

Hi Soref, you might want to look at the Jewdas article I posted above - this is really not who they are, it’s how they are painted by a dishonest right-wing blogger because it helps fit the “Corbyn slaps The Jews in the face” story.

Let's make something clear: we do NOT believe accusations of antisemitism in Labour and the left are nothing more than smears. We have questioned the Jewish establishments cherry picking of antisemitic incidents to suit their agenda.

— jewdⒶs // יידהודה (@geoffreyjewdas) April 3, 2018

AF, Haaretz is not a politically neutral site. their primary political tenet is opposition to the occupation and they more or less let that drive their politics domestic and foreign.

Corbyn will get there in the end.

Labour's Jewish vote fell when a two-state solution became part of its official policy and manifesto, under Ed Miliband.

xps yeah, I should have put "*perceived as* downplayed the significance", I know their position is more complex than that.

I’d be interested in hearing more of the complexity - I’m aware I’m in a bubble, but I’ve not heard anything to guide me away from their own view of themselves as the scourge of anti-semitism on the left.

O no a politically non-neutral site o no

don't act dense u understand 100%

soref's point about gathering momentum is a good one. you would hope that real action does happen now. they say mcnicol barred the institution of the chakraborti reforms. I'm not sure how much that is true, and how much is convenient scapegoating but lets hope formby can get her teeth into refreshing compliance and clear some of the backlog of cases. mcdonnell was making some positive noises too

re: complexity

In a statement last week, Jewdas accused the Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) of “playing a dangerous game with people’s lives”.

Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were “the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party”, it said.

I can see how some ppl might interpret this as playing down the significance of Labour anti-semitism, but I agree it's misrepresenting them to suggest that they think the whole thing is a smear conjured up out of thin air

Well Corbyn is useless at anything to do with PR and the media, idiotic is a fair criticism, except this WAS a personal thing which got picked up by Guido Fawkes.

― Buff Jeckley (Tom D.), Wednesday, 4 April 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Its not that he's useless at PR/media - its that he is not even trying. As someone pointed out someone from the Lab centre-right would do a cynical photo-op with a more 'mainstream' Jewish group. Corbyn isn't - and he has got this far w/not playing that game. Why would he start now?

I read a couple of accounts by pro-Corbyn labour ppl at the passover and Corbyn was invited and fully engaged for the duration of the ceremony. That sounds far better to me than "listening to concerns". You know the lot that listen to concerns, don't you know? And where that has got us to.

i didn't see the headline but i did look at the jewdas website yesterday and they didn't seem militant to me

― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

more just snarky and irreverent

― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

He gets one thing. *Beetroot emoji^

yes i only understand one thing about the history of radical left-wing movements in jewish history unlike you brilliant labour supporters who are all suddenly experts in the nuances of the jewish community and antisemitism

mordy did you see the Jewdas guide to combatting anti-semitism?

Never mind all that, how about opening a newspaper or two?

if he was really there in just a personal capacity why do any of us know about it??

xp

i personally know the guy who designed the mazel tov cocktail design they're selling on their website (tho we had a falling out a few years ago and have not spoken since). this is not some new phenomenon. i know these ppl (tho mostly the US contingency). i'm not choosing sides by saying they're out of step w/ most practicing jews. they say that themselves - that's their value. it's just not a great way to address concerns that most jews have when you hang out with a group that is hostile to most jewish community values. esp since so much of this discussion breaks down into "i dislike these jews because i don't like their position on israel" vs "i like these jews because i like their position on israel." it's asinine on both sides and corbyn is just playing that game not doing some brave new thing to address antisemitism or whatever.

(yes i saw the guide quite a while ago when it was first being passed around. iirc it was basically decent tho i disagreed w/ quite a few things in it.)

personally i feel much more at home with a group like Jewdas, but I realize my views are not particularly representative. I just think that a large proportion of Jews in the diaspora don't feel represented by or affinity with the mainstream orgs you mentioned, especially Jews under the age of like 50

the seder was obviously a political event i mean c'mon no matter who broke the story you don't invite corbyn to a non-political ritual event

what percentage of Jews would you describe as practicing?

good question. i'd have to look at the PEW polling to remember exactly what %# identifies as what but if you maintain some ritual observances / participate in one of the major denominations i'd consider you practicing. i don't think you need to be a zionist (tho the majority of identifying jews do consider themselves zionist). i don't think that if your participation is limited to attending the workman's circle or a bund group you're practicing tho (and historically participants in those groups wouldn't consider themselves practicing either).

this looks like better numbers about the religious votes in the 2017 election, but I'm curious about the historical numbers: http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/religious-affiliation-and-party-choice-at-the-2017-general-election/

sounds like the Jewish shift to Tories started in at least 2005, but maybe Corbyn added to it. Doesn't seem really comparable to the historical ties between Jews and the Democratic Party.

that makes it look like jews are the most pro-con religious group in the country

Which they are. I believe Hindus are catching up as their community gets wealthier.

I suppose NI Proddies dutifully turn out to vote for the DUP but that's another thread.

http://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31064276_1756641954382381_5660464831078072320_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeEJFBis1yJ7ucX2F9oaUArNq70xlat-DVKk3wjsFqUOPNSfiuejdXFjGYaJfGvEFtuFhynX6Fd-5Zf49LMOmuwJcl7NgMYXDLpLUoUotFqCig&oh=061443ca112e57bf2ff16cda0d79de16&oe=5B651B59

I know this is meant to be a joke, but does this sort of stuff strike anyone else as being insensitive and ignorant of history? Unthinking of the suffering that the original generation of refugees must have been going through in 1948, after losing everything. I ask because this is not the first time this sort of stuff has been posted on Facebook by people who I thought would know better.

i think it's funny ¯\_(ツ)_/¯