Is this anti-semitism?

Fwiw, the post-election survey with a much larger and less self-selecting sample size suggested that the 26% of Jewish voters opted for Labour in 2017, down from 29% in 2015 (when the Labour leader was, himself, Jewish). The argument would be that, with a broader swing to Labour across most groups, going backwards with Jewish voters indicted that Corbyn was a disincentive for some - and that seems to be highly likely. The vote share has not cratered though.

if you guys would like i could try and take a look at the jewdas haggadah at some point and give my opinion. if it really is openly derogatory and mocking towards judaism (which based on what i read on the website is at least possible) it would be worse than just hanging out w/ some fringe jews and that mail sub could be accurate (even if militant is obv inaccurate and i assume here being used more metaphorically - i doubt anyone believes they're actually armed?)

Don't suppose these articles mention that the Jewish vote here constitutes about half a percent of the electoral total at best? Not a reason to ignore or indeed offend a majority of it but still, as with many other (demonised) minorities here the number is usually thought of as higher than it really is.

not necessary i think everyone understands that jews constitute a tiny minority of a given population even in the US where about half of world jewry is concentrated let alone the UK. it's more indicative of jewish attitudes rather than any kind of pragmatic concern about winning vote totals. nb some ppl would argue that jewish money is important even tho jewish numbers are not but as you can imagine i find that line of thinking creepy at best.

the situation may be very different on the ground in the UK but this seems to sit firmly on the line in US politics where groups that defend Israel's state actions, or have a semi-religious zionist stance (including the weird christian dominionists) are quick to brand anyone not on their side as antisemitic

the plethora of links claiming Corbyn has antisemitic tendencies seem to lean heavily on Daily Mail articles

if anyone successfully rhetorically untangles that particular ball of twine in my lifetime I'll be pleasantly surprised

here's how i break it down more or less: he doesn't have antisemitic tendencies. he's an idiotic ideologue who basically will hang with any fellow traveller no matter what odious views they may personally hold. he isn't particularly sensitive to antisemitism (why should he be tbh) - but it doesn't speak well of anyone's intellect i think who finds useful allies among holocaust deniers or fundamentalist actually militant organizations.

I only heard about jewdas yesterday (thx guido) but the impression that they have given me (as non-Jew) is that they seem quite invested and respectful towards judaism (running free religious lessons in their community, free yiddish lessons etc) certainly there were a number of personal attestations on twitter yesterday from people who had been previously dislocated from their judaism but had found a way to reconnect with it through the prism of jewdas. as I say though I am not jewish and so wd obv defer to experts. just my impression from 24hours as an outsider

like does it make him antisemitic to say hamas and hezbollah are "friends"? no. judith butler called them members of the international left. it's just so fucking dumb (for corbyn and butler). sanders sometimes got dinged for not being appropriately sensitive to racism at times and in some way i think it's similar. it's not really fair to call a lack of concern for an issue synonymous w/ being a bigot, but it is fair to assume such a person might not adequately represent your concerns in such an area.

It's a good job british voters don't give a shit about his intellect in comparison to his policies and human rights record, then. None of the smears about the IRA or the Holocaust or whatever tf have landed on him yet. You do get the odd Spectator write complaining he hasn't done PPE at a Russel group uni though

one of the jewish labour activists from my part of the world (“proudly”) used the jewdas haggadah at her seder. she has been an outspoken advocate for further work within UK labour on combatting and educating about antisemitism

you're dealing w/ a group that is openly hostile to most Jews and Jewish groups/practices.

This is, of course, nonsense. From the post that started this:

Although we enjoy the anonymity, it is a fairly open secret that nearly all of us in Jewdas are synagogue-going Jews, most with either paid or voluntary positions within our communities. With members across the country, for the last thirteen years we have been the only place many people could come to be both left-wing and religiously Jewish.

https://www.jewdas.org/?p=4780

Haaretz seems fine with them: https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-no-one-gets-to-say-who-are-good-jews-not-even-jews-1.5976112

re jewdas religious beliefs i don't feel like i know enough about them to say but "yiddish" alone isn't indicative of much since much of yiddish tradition is actively hostile towards judaism (except in chassidic circles it is a secular competing tradition that was meant to replace traditional judaism). it's important to distinguish between judaism and jewry since they're not synonymous. nb that they very well could be well versed in jewish traditions and texts and drawing from those but otoh their website is explicitly anti jewish parochialism and pro universalism so a move away from judaism per se seems likely. ultimately you do find groups in 2018 in the jewish world who are explicitly jewish but anti anything in traditional judaism. you have to determine to what extent you think that's a legitimate expression of judaism or apostasy whatever. like if you only like that quote about loving the stranger but find the rest of the Torah pretty worthless idk how keyed in you actually can claim to be. sorry this is a bit ot and nb nb i really should emphasize that i don't actually know enough jewdas to comment specifically - just to give a broader topography of the current environment.

daily mail says they’re a hate filled group who mock judaism tho so

Disgusting from Corbyn. He should not be mocking Judaism by raising a beetroot in the air and shouting "fuck capitalism." pic.twitter.com/wlP90mn4lZ

— heartbeeps (@hrtbps) April 4, 2018

but it doesn't speak well of anyone's intellect i think who finds useful allies among holocaust deniers or fundamentalist actually militant organizations

Sure but weighed against his counterparts and their equivalent mistakes and bad judgements plus the demonstrably absurd 'mainstream' bias, asking 'Corbyn seems stupid why do people love him' just doesn't seem amount to much.

he isn't particularly sensitive to anti-Semitism

This is probably true, I suspect you might have to develop a tin ear to mix in the company he's mixed in most of his political life, I couldn't have done it. Also he isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

one depressing thing about all this is in the last week there did seem to be a shift where Corbyn supporters who were previously reluctant to acknowledge any kind of anti-semitism problem in Labour were coming out and saying that there was a serious issue, and that the left and Corbyn personally had not done enough to challenge it, there was some pushback from Corbyn supporters against other Corbyn supporters who were suggesting that it's all a right-wing smear campaign etc - and then there's this attack from Guido that is so incompetent and mendacious that the conversation has shifted back to how terrible the anti-Corbyn media is (which is true and a legit point to make in this particular instance imo, and like Tom says a lot of Jewish commentators who are generally v critical of Corbyn have been offended and angry at the way Guido and the Mail etc have portrayed Jewdas, but is does seem to have killed some of the momentum in dealing with the genuine anti-semitism on the left?)

this is from their website and what gives me pause:

Written in Yiddish (which turned out to be a far older, more authentic language than Hebrew), it teaches of the great radicalism of Jewish tradition, a tradition of dreamers, subversives, cosmopolitans and counter-culturalists. It waxes lyrical on the virtues of cosmopolitanism, putting loyalty to ideas of international justice over tribalism and parochialism, and attacks the opressiveness of the ‘natural’ in favour of ethics designed to meet the face of the other. It preaches of the need to widen Judaism beyond the boundaries of those born Jewish, towards an ethic of wider concern, a Judaism that might at times stand in critique of the Jews. It prophesised a rise of ‘international subversives’ who would undermine power wherever they found themselves, who would preach veganism, pacifism and pickled cucumbers.

none of that is bad but it is a break w/ jewish community as a collective by intention

ok uk ppl who don't actually care about jewishness or antisemitism please stop posting here it's not helpful for you or anyone else

asking 'Corbyn seems stupid why do people love him' just doesn't seem amount to much.

who is even saying this? i know why ppl love stupid politicians. our POTUS is Donald Trump. what does it have to do w/ any of the issues at hand?

soref OTM

ok uk ppl who don't actually care about jewishness or antisemitism please stop posting here it's not helpful for you or anyone else

― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 17:35 (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Heh. It's very much the issue here at the moment, so I (we) very much care about it. I've been very concerned to ask my Jewish acquaintances what they think, and none has given me an answer which demonstrates a newly anti-Corbyn opinion after this media campaign. And those who think there might be a mild problem with some of his previous opinions and affiliations also think it's way, way down the list of important factors in their and everyone else's vote.

i mean if you're concerned about antisemitism qua antisemitism or antisemitism qua labour's political chances. if it's the latter probably the uk thread is a better place to talk about how it doesn't matter or it's not a major concern and jews don't vote in such big numbers anyway.

it's striking how intelligent all of corbyn's critics are

you're the one who revived the thread with a commentary about British politics, Mordy!

I care about my Jewish friends and loathe anti-semitism; please don't tell me or others who is allowed to answer you on British political topics where you lack information and are seeking clarification.

Hamas and Hizbollah only got called 'friends' in a single meeting where many groups came together for peaceful discussion; it is part of a long-standing British legal and political tradition where one's opposite counsel/elected official in council chambers and Parliament are addressed eg. 'my right honourable friend', 'my learned friend'. British Tory politicians tried to cast aspersions on Corbyn for this but it got zero traction, probably because of this very old tradition.

like i'll agree 100% that ppl are cynically using charges of antisemitism to try and smear corbyn for electoral gain. that doesn't mean the charges are foundless (tho like i mentioned i think it's more that corbyn doesn't mind antisemites than that he personally dislikes jews).

suzy do you think corbyn would've referred to bibi netanyahu as friends?

i mean with all due respect it's so obvious to me how your opinions on these topics are driven by political necessity it's kinda lame to have to point out that he didn't refer to hamas as his friend because of political tradition.

I think a lot of the arguments about this particular event on social media etc have been fruitless b/c it's really about trust, it's not necessarily that Corbyn's critics object to him going to this event per se, but they don't trust him when he professes to believe that anti-semitism in labour is a serious problem and he is determined to work with the jewish community, and when they see him go to an event held by a group that has downplayed the significance of left-wing anti-semitism it confirms their belief that he doesn't *really* mean it?

so there are these arguments where ppl defend Corbyn on the basis that he never held up Jewdas as being representative of the jewish community as a whole, or delving into exactly what kind of position Jewdas takes on certain issues don't really schange anyone's mind because it's more about a general lack of trust in Corbyn b ased on his entire career and history rather than this one particular incident - I don't think there's any quick fix, just Labour and the left constantly showing that they do take this issue seriously over a long period of time

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My opinions are not at issue here. I'm sorry you don't like my answer but that's the answer you're getting.

If Netanyahu came to a meeting like the one I referenced above, he too would be called 'friend'.

lol ok when corbyn refers to Likud as "our friends" i'll accept your point

Tomorrow evening it will be my pleasure and my honour to host an event in parliament where our friends from Hezbollah will be speaking. I’d also invited friends from Hamas to come and speak as well. Unfortunately the Israelis would not allow them to travel here as well so it’s only going to be friends from Hezbollah. So far as I’m concerned that is absolutely the right function of using parliamentary facilities to invite people from other parts of the world so that we can promote that peace, that understanding and that dialogue.And the idea that an organization that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and bringing about long term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region should be labelled as a terrorist organization by the British Government is really a big, big historical mistake and I would invite the Government to reconsider its position on this matter and start talking directly to Hamas and Hezbollah, that is the only way forward.

again this is what you'd expect from an anti-imperialist who sees these groups as potential allies. it's not antisemitic imo at core. but i don't believe this is an honorific argument.

don't you only refer to them as your right honourable friend if they're from the same party as you

just to spell it out - he's explicitly advocating on behalf of hezbollah and hamas - so claiming it's just a procedural thing is disingenuous or ignorant.

Corbyn is actually into the resistance and was into the 'RA tbh. It's funny seeing people tie themselves into knots to explain these proclivities away.

It’s polite, and I took him at his word when he explained.

but is does seem to have killed some of the momentum in dealing with the genuine anti-semitism on the left?)

I think this specifically is why Momentum put out the statement they did, and why Jon Lansman and Rhea Wolfson (both NEC members) have spoken out yesterday about the need for robust action. Supposedly Jennie Formby has been tasked with overhauling the compliance process and leading on this too. If anything comes of this, let it be solid action on this.

Lansman is particularly interesting because while he and Corbyn are long term allies, he has been critical of him (deservedly so).

His relationship with Milne has been less than comradely ever since, boiling over again when he remonstrated with Corbyn and his aides about their handling of Labour’s anti-Semitism scandal. Lansman is praised by Labour moderates for his role in patiently explaining to Corbyn both what anti-Semitism is and why it is a problem on the left, and for ordering comrades to stop using ‘Zionist’ as a term of abuse. Not everyone in the leader’s office agreed.

(From https://life.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/letting-the-hard-left-off-the-leash, bit of irony when you look at the byline lol)

and when they see him go to an event held by a group that has downplayed the significance of left-wing anti-semitism

Hi Soref, you might want to look at the Jewdas article I posted above - this is really not who they are, it’s how they are painted by a dishonest right-wing blogger because it helps fit the “Corbyn slaps The Jews in the face” story.

Let's make something clear: we do NOT believe accusations of antisemitism in Labour and the left are nothing more than smears. We have questioned the Jewish establishments cherry picking of antisemitic incidents to suit their agenda.

— jewdⒶs // יידהודה (@geoffreyjewdas) April 3, 2018

AF, Haaretz is not a politically neutral site. their primary political tenet is opposition to the occupation and they more or less let that drive their politics domestic and foreign.

Corbyn will get there in the end.

Labour's Jewish vote fell when a two-state solution became part of its official policy and manifesto, under Ed Miliband.

xps yeah, I should have put "*perceived as* downplayed the significance", I know their position is more complex than that.

I’d be interested in hearing more of the complexity - I’m aware I’m in a bubble, but I’ve not heard anything to guide me away from their own view of themselves as the scourge of anti-semitism on the left.

O no a politically non-neutral site o no

don't act dense u understand 100%

soref's point about gathering momentum is a good one. you would hope that real action does happen now. they say mcnicol barred the institution of the chakraborti reforms. I'm not sure how much that is true, and how much is convenient scapegoating but lets hope formby can get her teeth into refreshing compliance and clear some of the backlog of cases. mcdonnell was making some positive noises too

re: complexity

In a statement last week, Jewdas accused the Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) of “playing a dangerous game with people’s lives”.

Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were “the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party”, it said.

I can see how some ppl might interpret this as playing down the significance of Labour anti-semitism, but I agree it's misrepresenting them to suggest that they think the whole thing is a smear conjured up out of thin air

Well Corbyn is useless at anything to do with PR and the media, idiotic is a fair criticism, except this WAS a personal thing which got picked up by Guido Fawkes.

― Buff Jeckley (Tom D.), Wednesday, 4 April 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Its not that he's useless at PR/media - its that he is not even trying. As someone pointed out someone from the Lab centre-right would do a cynical photo-op with a more 'mainstream' Jewish group. Corbyn isn't - and he has got this far w/not playing that game. Why would he start now?

I read a couple of accounts by pro-Corbyn labour ppl at the passover and Corbyn was invited and fully engaged for the duration of the ceremony. That sounds far better to me than "listening to concerns". You know the lot that listen to concerns, don't you know? And where that has got us to.

i didn't see the headline but i did look at the jewdas website yesterday and they didn't seem militant to me

― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

more just snarky and irreverent

― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

He gets one thing. *Beetroot emoji^

yes i only understand one thing about the history of radical left-wing movements in jewish history unlike you brilliant labour supporters who are all suddenly experts in the nuances of the jewish community and antisemitism

mordy did you see the Jewdas guide to combatting anti-semitism?

Never mind all that, how about opening a newspaper or two?

if he was really there in just a personal capacity why do any of us know about it??

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