Sarko vs. Royal, Don't Read if You Don't Give A Phoque About French Presidential Politics

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not much point is there?

crosspost

― RJG, Monday, 23 April 2007 14:53 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost

Tracer, the fact that the Right is trying to paint Royal as a lightweight using a gendered narrative is not in doubt. It's connected to, but different from, the question of whether she actually is a lightweight. By all means let's do comparative policy analyses and compare public opinion on specific policy issues. I'm not arguing that her policies are wrong; in fact I think they're more right than wrong. I'm arguing that she's been an incredibly weak advocate for them. A leader must also be able to effectively sell his or her project to the people it is going to impact on, otherwise nothing happens (vide: every French government ever going back on reform once they encounter street opposition). In other words, presentation matters very much to actual outcomes, as you rightly say, and a good leader is one who is able to seize the narrative. That Royal has been largely unable to do this, and has been unable to project an image of competency, is in itself a sign of poor leadership. It's simply too easy to blame this on some sort of media/right-wing collusion, particularly in a country where the media is less right-wing than in Britain and the United States.

― underpants of the gods, Monday, 23 April 2007 14:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Paris results here :
http://www.paris.fr/portail/viewmultimediadocument?multimediadocument-id=29058

― brunob, Monday, 23 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I guess not, RJG (xpost.)

It's difficult to judge, but I actually think the "gendered narrative" is not a huge factor, and the "omg socialists commie reds taking over" vs. "liberalism = we're all rich" is the bigger issue everyone always comes back to here. Which is politics in a nutshell since um, forever it seems.

― riche, Monday, 23 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

particularly in a country where the media is less right-wing than in Britain and the United States

i'm not so sure. actually i think it's even worse, the right comparison is probably italy and berlusconi

― brunob, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Come on. There's no Fox News in France.

― underpants of the gods, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:04 (seventeen years ago) link

of course. i meant maybe less right-wing but also less independant. it doesn't matter how much right-wing they are as long as they support sarko.

― brunob, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link

What do you mean by less independent?

― riche, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Don't forget that France's ONLY daily left-wing newspaper has been working with a skeleton crew for months now, and is still printing only because the employees raised holy hell, demanding to stay open until the elections. Dark mutterings have been voiced about the possibility that Lib&233#;'s swift collapse following its acquisition by Eduoard de Rothschild (not exactly a progressive dude) might have been... the point of the acquisition in the first place.

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

um, Lib&233# = Libé

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

GAH

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, true. Also true that the country's "paper of record", Le Monde, is centre-left. Also, newspapers are probably a lot less important in France than the UK, they have a much smaller readership.

― underpants of the gods, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:25 (seventeen years ago) link

what i meant (x-post)

a) a long tradition of deference toward the political power in place
b) the fact that sarko is a close friend of several big "patrons de presse" (sorry i don't know the english word) : Lagardere, Rothschild...

― brunob, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Press barons

― Michael White, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Le Monde is about as center-left as the New York Times, i.e. not really

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link

A girl told me she submitted a blank vote, as in an empty ballot. What is the point of this? Why not just stay home? Can anyone explain it?

― riche, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:35 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks Michael.
yeah i disagree with Le monde being centre-left. It used to be but now Plenel left and both Minc and Colombani officially support Sarkozy.

― brunob, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:37 (seventeen years ago) link

(btw hi baaderonixx!! how's belgium?)

― riche, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:40 (seventeen years ago) link

xpost

The deference thing is true. You'd never get a French version of Jeremy Paxman, that's for sure.

On the other hand, there is also a tradition of investigative journalism particularly with satirical magazines like Charlie Hebdo and Le Canard Enchainé, which regularly break political stories and uncover political scandals.

<i>Le Monde is about as center-left as the New York Times, i.e. not really</i>

Well, maybe it's no longer centre-left, but it's not exactly right wing either. I guess we'll soon see who it comes out for.

― underpants of the gods, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:41 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm not sure you could really identify an editorial line in Le Monde, but it sure does seem to have an agenda (most of the time, helping those in power to stay there, cf. Balladur in 1995). The fact that Minc is pretty explicit in his support of Sarko, combined with Colombani's recent editorial, would seem to confirm this.

― baaderonixx, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Only one percent of Muslims voted for Sarko.

― Michael White, Monday, 23 April 2007 17:42 (seventeen years ago) link

who did Muslims vote for?

-- curious and non-francophone

― gff, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:07 (seventeen years ago) link

64% for Ségolène Royal. 19% for François Bayrou. 8% for Besancenot.

― Michael White, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:26 (seventeen years ago) link

islamarxism in effect!! or maybe don't call people trash if you want their support.

i had a crazy half-idea that sarko's frank assholism had actually earned him some respect among immigrants but this was probably some right wing fantasy i read somewhere

― gff, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:31 (seventeen years ago) link

When you 'get tough' on crime in poor neighborhoods, you'll always get a certain amount of sympathy from the people who most feel victimized by what the French euphemistically call 'insecurity', but he's been not so much firm as just mean about it and alientated a lot more people than he had to.

― Michael White, Monday, 23 April 2007 18:45 (seventeen years ago) link

It also shouldn't be forgotten that Sarkozy in effect brokered the creation of the French Muslim Council (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2593623.stm, and according to The Economist at least, is in favour of affirmitive action for immigrants. I think until the final round we'll see him to trying to mend some bridges now that Le Pen is out of the way.

― aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Monday, 23 April 2007 19:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Sarko has come out for affirmative action in a republic which is famously color-blind and now that he basically has the FN voters in his pocket, he undoubtedly will try to seduce some UDF voters. Bayrou is going to announce his choice on Wednesday, apparently.

― Michael White, Monday, 23 April 2007 19:24 (seventeen years ago) link

in a republic which is famously color-blind

I really can't tell whether you're being sarcastic with that or not. This is a country where 11% of the electorate voted for a outright racist.

― aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Monday, 23 April 2007 20:12 (seventeen years ago) link

I didn't say country, I said republic.

The first article of the present constitution reads, "La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Elle assure l'égalité devant la loi de tous les citoyens sans distinction d'origine, de race ou de religion." (France is an indivisble, secular, democratic and social republic. It assures the equality before the law of all citizens without distinction of their origin, race or religion.) This has been held to mean that, unlike the U.S., which has tracked people based on their stated race, the French Republic will not do this. Very high minded, perhaps, but it also means that no affirmative action based on race or religion or national origin has been tried.

― Michael White, Monday, 23 April 2007 20:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Looks like 53% for Sarko with a record 86% of voters going to the polls.

― Michael White, Sunday, 6 May 2007 18:20 (sixteen years ago) link

Royal has conceded

― stet, Sunday, 6 May 2007 18:49 (sixteen years ago) link

how is she conceding so early? shouldn't this stuff last until 5am or summat?

― Gukbe, Sunday, 6 May 2007 19:41 (sixteen years ago) link

pwned
http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/special-reports/20061226-New-year-special/f24ReportVideoParagraph/0/thumbnail/20061229_Royal_m.jpg

― gershy, Sunday, 6 May 2007 20:09 (sixteen years ago) link

people are horrible

― RJG, Sunday, 6 May 2007 22:07 (sixteen years ago) link

Racaille!

― jim, Sunday, 6 May 2007 22:09 (sixteen years ago) link

i think stevem, should be told, about this thread.

― That one guy that quit, Sunday, 6 May 2007 22:43 (sixteen years ago) link

people are kicking off in the streets.

― stet, Sunday, 6 May 2007 22:47 (sixteen years ago) link

so gershy farms cocks? i'll file that away

― Tracer Hand, Sunday, 6 May 2007 23:59 (sixteen years ago) link

http://p2602.canalblog.com/images/t-Affiche_Sarkozy_Votez_LePen.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 7 May 2007 00:03 (sixteen years ago) link

sigh. what a day.

― Frogman Henry, Monday, 7 May 2007 00:09 (sixteen years ago) link

Everything you mention is trivial.

Late, but can I just mention that advocating Quebec separatism wasn't trivial to everyone? I might have rooted for SR all the way otherwise. (I'm sure she's crushed.)

I haven't studied NS' platform in depth but is there anything there that would be further right than a middle-of-the-road Canadian Liberal (let alone a run-of-the-mill Democrat?)

― Sundar, Monday, 7 May 2007 00:34 (sixteen years ago) link

“He is more concrete, more precise than the left,” said Mohamed Hamidi, editor in chief of Bondy Blog, a fledgling online magazine focused on France’s working-class suburbs. “But he is ready for confrontation.”

“If Sarkozy wins, I’m sure there’ll be trouble the night of the elections,” said Mr. Hamidi, the Bondy Blog editor. “With Ségo, things will be calm for five years.”

quoted from a NYT article
In French Bid, Immigrant’s Son Battles Reputation as Anti-Immigrant
By CRAIG S. SMITH
Published: May 5, 2007

― youn, Monday, 7 May 2007 01:11 (sixteen years ago) link

reminds me of Michael Howerd.

― Frogman Henry, Monday, 7 May 2007 03:09 (sixteen years ago) link

Something of la nuit.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 7 May 2007 03:49 (sixteen years ago) link

Sundar you're right but she didn't "declare her support for Quebec sovereignty". The newspapers, ready to land on her head like a grand piano, spun what she said into that.

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 7 May 2007 14:13 (sixteen years ago) link

Journalist: "Quelles sont vos affinités avec la souveraineté du Québec?"

Royal: "Elles sont conformes aux valeurs qui nous sont communes, c'est-à-dire la souveraineté et la liberté du Québec. Je pense que le rayonnement du Québec et la place qu'il occupe dans le coeur des Français vont dans ce sens".

I don't think there are too many different ways of interpreting that. She most certainly did "declare her support for Quebec sovereignty".

― underpants of the gods, Monday, 7 May 2007 14:31 (sixteen years ago) link

Well it's hardly "Vive le Quebec libre", which is what De Gaulle said!

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 7 May 2007 14:40 (sixteen years ago) link

sundar I have the same question as you, I mean, is "right wing" sarko actually any further to the right than hillary clinton, joe biden, chris dodd?

― daria-g, Monday, 7 May 2007 14:41 (sixteen years ago) link

Well it's hardly "Vive le Quebec libre", which is what De Gaulle said!

Well it's not as punchy as that, but it amounts to much the same thing. It was a very silly thing to have said, when she could so easily have batted the question into the long grass. It's as if Hillary Clinton had come to the UK and started talking about the sovereignty and liberty of Scotland or Wales.

is "right wing" sarko actually any further to the right than hillary clinton, joe biden, chris dodd?

It's very hard to make comparisons. Despite his bluster, I don't think Sarkozy will turn out to be much of a neo-liberal free marketeer. His instincts are protectionist, for a start. He'll be more of an archaic, authoritarian, police-state right-winger, cutting tax for his rich buddies but otherwise keeping a firm hand on the till of the state.

― underpants of the gods, Monday, 7 May 2007 14:49 (sixteen years ago) link

aka "Let the big dogs eat"

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 7 May 2007 15:06 (sixteen years ago) link

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