political differences with your kids

but I agree that the best thing to do is to have a discussion, not a debate, and to make your son feel acknowledged while still explaining why you disagree. leave the toxic attitude of "we have to sort this out right here right now" to twitter and cable news.

if you do notice he is holding onto some misogynistic or racist beliefs then maybe that's an opportunity to see what's going on in his life & why he feels angry, why he is harboring resentment.

if he just has an opinion about gun rights i don't think that's necessarily a fire you have to stamp out.

nb IANAP.

if you don't talk to your kids about Reddit, then who will?

Oh, definitely. I think we have done a good job raising him to be a caring individual and to think for himself rather than enforcing any kind of orthodoxy on him. My wife and I don't agree about everything politically either and he sees how we put our differences aside to love each other and be parents to him and his sister.

But it was the way he emphasized "with facts" that made me think he is rarin for a debate.

And yeah, I worry that the gun control revelation has the potential to unmask racial or sexual or religious biases.

yeah i didn't think about that kind of stuff, would definitely bring a different dynamic to the discussion.

"with facts" is such a teenager thing but obviously you still get a lot of adults adhering to that mindset, not gonna zing any ILXors, this is a serious thread. but questioning the underlying assumptions of "facts" might be a good conversation to have too.

The "with facts" aspect definitely makes me afraid you've got some kind of Dawkins-loving reddity rationalboy on your hands, but I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm not a parent but I think you've had some good advice on this thread.

I have not had to deal with this yet, but here's my advice nonetheless.

I do not recommend challenging the epistemology of "facts." I think such a course of action will backfire and your kid will determine that you're a blind ideologue who takes his beliefs on faith. One can make a case questioning the underlying assumptions of "facts" but if you're already concerned about your debate skills I don't think you'll be able to make the case (and it's a very subtle case to make that a teenager maybe isn't equipped to handle). At the same time you need some ammo. So here's my suggestion: Steer the debate to shared values. If you make it about values then you can determine where he dissents from you. For example, once he agrees that "all people should be treated equally," then if he posits an idea that undermines that value you can point out that his beliefs are not consistent with his stated values.

*groan* Overheard him talking to my mother-in-law yesterday:

MIL: Yours is going to be a generation that changes the world. Mine was too.
Son: What did your generation do to change the world?
MIL: Well, back then one of the main things that we did was protest against the Vietnam War...
Son: Why would you protest against the Vietnam War? We were fighting against Communism!

yikesies

do you think it's a specific friend he's got that's feeding him this stuff? particular reddit wormholes? what? that's a pretty specific (and ancient) political view for him to have cottoned onto

thread's a bit of a bummer. my parents would talk with me about politics, ethics, life, religion, history, ideology & whatever else all the time growing up, it taught and shaped me more than anything else. seems like one of the main bits of being a parent to me

I wonder if there's an element of adolescent rebellion involved, him trying to establish his own position in distinction from his parents.

it would be weird if there wasn't

lol @ communism

ask him what he thinks about the Frankfurt School, then you'll know for sure

I know at least one guy he's been friends with since elementary school comes from a very conservative family. I don't really know any of his other friends because he doesn't bring anyone around the house anymore. He just goes off into the neighborhood with his little bmx gang.

It's interesting, because he used to spend TONS of time with my MIL and FIL (they live a few blocks away). He'd go over every week to watch football and baseball, but stopped doing so recently and I couldn't figure out why. They are both fairly middle-of-the-road Dems, but also on a very surface-level, repeating the talking points from the news, "Oh boy, that Trump..." kinda people. I'm a Dem too obvs but talking politics with them often stretches my patience. I disagree with my son's opinions, but like I said upthread, he's bright and intellectually curious and good at arguing points. If he's been harboring conservative ideas, I imagine they'd be absolutely unbearable to be around.

this is an interesting thread, NV's initial reply rings true to me (not a parent, though)

I think it's a bit of red herring, as in not as important as it may seem - as long as there's love and kindness, maybe it doesn't really matter if he believes the Vietnam war was just

iirc I was a Mao apologist around age 14 though I knew hardly anything about Chinese history, throughout my life I've had plenty of wacky ideas - fortunately very few of them turned out to be dangerous since I was never in any real position of power

I think my advice would be to encourage him to read books, I think books are very valuable resources in developing the idea that the world is very complex (and I think, in a way, books can be a kind of anti-dote to the internet) (of course there are also plenty of shit books but no need to recommend those)

The books idea is a really good one! I might have to think about that a little more.

iirc I was a Mao apologist around age 14 though I knew hardly anything about Chinese history, throughout my life I've had plenty of wacky ideas -

Heh, yeah. Something is emerging out of the fog of my memory where I dropped some teenage communist knowledge at the dinner table and my old man (who, as stated above, has always been a very progressive guy) had to give me some guidance.

How's life, from a neurological view, you don't need to worry too much. I can't explain it much better than this so:

"Imaging studies of the teenage brain show that it undergoes a colossal makeover between ages 12 and 25. During this period, the brain doesn’t grow in size. Instead, it extensively rewires itself. Scientists once thought this reorganization meant that the adolescent brain was a work in progress, and the rewiring could account for teens’ inconsistency, their incomprehensible and terrifying (at least to adults) risk taking and recklessness, and their near-desperate need to be with peers.

New research suggests there’s more to the story. As National Geographic writer David Dobbs explains, researchers have begun to view

“recent brain and genetic findings in a brighter, more flattering light, one distinctly colored by evolutionary theory. The resulting account of the adolescent brain—call it the adaptive-adolescent story—casts the teen less as a rough draft than as an exquisitely sensitive, highly adaptable creature wired almost perfectly for the job of moving from the safety of home into the complicated world outside.”"

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/a-new-view-of-the-teenage-brain-adaptation-is-job-1-201110013505

I mean i would interpret that as a prime time to maybe not debate but express differing viewpoints with your kiddo if only for the sake of learning that you don't need to be offended or aggressive about someone else's point of view?

Thanks, sunny!

Niels - Cant wrap my head around a kid finding Maoism attractive in any way except as a way to piss people off.

If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

I didn't know anything about Maoism! (Still don't!)

I just decided to become a hippie/socialist since it seemed the countercultural thing to do (also seemed in accordance with my values/upbringing and the music + parties were great) and I found a book on socialism in the library which was very apologetic about every socialist/communist regime and I internalized that apologism, I guess

agree completely w/ Lennon

reason I remember the Maoism thing is that I had a friend who had been to China and who was like Niels you don't understand anything about Chinese history and frankly it's disturbing the way you defend Communist China and instead of accepting her very valid points I deferred to poor paraphrasing of something I read in a probably very unreliable socialist history book

I've discovered over the past few weeks that his friend group (who he NEVER brings by our house - he's always just "going out" and roaming the neighborhood) is pretty racially diverse. That puts to rest the worst of my fears - that the conservative tendencies he has shown would draw back and reveal some white ethnostate alt-right maniac. If I don't have that to worry about, I feel so much better about him sorting out his political positions on his own, or with his friends and classmates.

Yay!