I vehemently disagree with the idea that what they need to do is improvise or cut loose...they all have chops, it would be the easiest thing in the world for them to jam or solo, and the last thing I want to hear. The restraint and emphasis on composition is what made them special imo. TNT still has a lot of magic for me.
Also I think music has kind of caught up with them and their sort of omnivorous approach to influences became increasingly common.
This I agree with, their particular influences sort of feel like a limitation these days rather than a source of inspiration. It would be cool if there was a sense of engagement with more recent music while still being Tortoise-y (or maybe it's just that they've written all their best melodies already).
― change display name (Jordan), Monday, 12 March 2018 15:01 (six years ago) link
I always felt like their "Steve Reich influence" in particular was kind of half-assed, and maybe if they really studied Steve Reich they could do something more interesting with that.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 12 March 2018 15:33 (six years ago) link
Strictly in terms of Tortoise (and cannot overstate this qualifier enough): Parker >>> Pajo = Bundy
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 12 March 2018 16:01 (six years ago) link
I once saw Tortoise close out the Bang on a Can marathon, and while I've usually enjoyed them live, seeing them follow all the much more highly trained and polished musicians playing actual Steve Reich compositions and various other "new music" stuff made them look extremely sloppy.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 12 March 2018 16:05 (six years ago) link
It's all just very ... surface, from the Reich riffs to the Ennio Morricone stuff and so on. The compositions, basically, and the arrangements, which wouldn't be such heavy anchors if they allowed themselves to cut loose a little. Think of the way a group like Can is able to stretch and explore their ideas. I wish Tortoise could do that. Or would do that.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 12 March 2018 16:14 (six years ago) link
I wish anyone would do would do that, preferably with me!!
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 12 March 2018 16:18 (six years ago) link
Standards is their best album
― loud horn beeping jazzsplaining arse (dog latin), Monday, 12 March 2018 16:29 (six years ago) link
(Also they stopped with the serious engagement with electronica and remix culture around the time of Standards and I don't know why, or if that's related too
Huh? Always heard it as their most electronic-sounding album
― loud horn beeping jazzsplaining arse (dog latin), Monday, 12 March 2018 16:36 (six years ago) link
I listened to TNT a lot in '98-'99. thought it was soundtrack Muzak then, and when I listened to it again a few days ago after someone wrote about its 20th anniversary, it still sounds like Muzak to me. Good Muzak. It's like reading some Waxpoetics piece about bland fusoid jazz albums that are now considered "neglected classics" or listening to someone tell me that John Barry and Morricone are "great composers." Morricone did have his moments as did Barry (Barry's Boom ST is pretty good).
― eddhurt, Monday, 12 March 2018 17:02 (six years ago) link
― eddhurt, Monday, 12 March 2018 17:03 (six years ago) link
sorry for the duplicate post, folks, I musta hit the wrong button.
why are you so reluctant to improvise
― j., Monday, 12 March 2018 17:18 (six years ago) link
Morricone bores me tbh. Tortoise's ersatz Morricone > Morricone. And it's still probably my least favorite part of Tortoise.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 12 March 2018 17:25 (six years ago) link
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, March 12, 2018 5:25 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
my feelings exactly, glad someone had the guts to say this.
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 12 March 2018 17:57 (six years ago) link
I always want Morricone soundtracks to sound more like Paris, Texas and I'm always disappointed
I even bought that Ipecac comp of 'weird' Morricone material curated by Alan Bishop, hoping for a gateway, but the constant annoying sex noises made me want to fling the CD from the moving car
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 12 March 2018 18:01 (six years ago) link
Not sure that took "guts", exactly
― albvivertine, Monday, 12 March 2018 18:26 (six years ago) link
Oh come on, Morricone is a sacred cow of sacred cows (even if my suspicion is that more people cite him than listen to him)
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 12 March 2018 18:43 (six years ago) link
the paris texas soundtrack is the fountainhead of shit hokey guitar americana
― ogmor, Monday, 12 March 2018 20:40 (six years ago) link
nah
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 12 March 2018 20:50 (six years ago) link
who else are you going to pin it on
― ogmor, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 00:00 (six years ago) link
Ry Cooder is a guy I feel similarly meh about.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 13 March 2018 00:16 (six years ago) link
He's an incredible player who has recorded really no solo material I want to listen to. Morricone, on the other hand ...
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 00:26 (six years ago) link
xp well, if we're talking the past twenty years or so, John Fahey is probably responsible for a lot more subsequent guitar mediocrity than Cooder.
I guess both of those guys' styles are easy for intermediate guitarists to superficially imitate. You don't hear a lot of young guitar players aspiring to sound like Fripp or Ribot or Michael Hedges
Sorry for the digression here!
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 00:42 (six years ago) link
Michael Hedges is fucking terrible so there's that
― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 13 March 2018 01:03 (six years ago) link
I mean if ppl are gonna shit on Fahey then diss kids for not wanting to be the Jaco version of Fahey
― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 13 March 2018 01:04 (six years ago) link
despite his rep v few people have a clue what Fahey was even up to, & the best known slices of what he did have largely been influential on the culture at the "damn fingerpicking in open tunings creates such a sweet vibe!" level and the ensuing mediocrity is really nothing to do with him.
how it functions as a soundtrack is a separate discussion, but paris texas is v much all about summoning up that sweet atmosphere, so however clumsily it's aped, there's less to misunderstand. this reminds me of the deliciously not-wrong-but- review of jack rose's red horse, white mule which compared his cover of dark was the night to the paris texas soundtrack
― ogmor, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 01:08 (six years ago) link
― Paul Ponzi
i wasn't really nuts about that bishop comp
the hard thing about dismissing morricone is that he's done so much stuff that it's hard to genuinely claim one's heard enough to say he's no good
― ziggy the ginhead (rushomancy), Tuesday, 13 March 2018 02:12 (six years ago) link
if he was better wouldn't he have done stuff everyone would know to be good despite the volume
― j., Tuesday, 13 March 2018 02:37 (six years ago) link
if walt rockman was any good he could psychically project his best songs into everybody's mind instead of having them buried on records nobody heard for decades
― ziggy the ginhead (rushomancy), Tuesday, 13 March 2018 02:59 (six years ago) link
― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, March 13, 2018 1:04 AM (eleven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I think you misunderstand me--I'm definitely not shitting on Fahey. I'm suggesting his style is not especially difficult to ape compared to some other guitarists I named at random whose music is singular and instantly recognizable the moment you hear it (whether you like it or not).
and give me the "Jaco version of Fahey" over inept indie rockers mangling ragas and "country blues" any day
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 12:51 (six years ago) link
I'm listening to michael hedges properly for the first time & I would like to formally curse ilx
― ogmor, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 13:31 (six years ago) link
Fahey is almost like a theoretical virtuoso. Ry Cooder is a real virtuoso, but not that interesting to me. The Brits like the Pentangle or Fairport folks, there's some virtuoso for you, on point *and* on theme.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 14:41 (six years ago) link
But then, I always thought Jim O'Rourke a sham and fraud. So ...
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 14:42 (six years ago) link
what's a theoretical virtuoso? like... a composer?
― ogmor, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 14:58 (six years ago) link
Like, Fahey's big thing is often emulating the spirit of all these old blues guys. So it's less that he has to be a flashy player and more that he must capture that sort of primitive vibe. Like playing a character as much as playing the guitar.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 15:30 (six years ago) link
ha yeah, he is much more interested in character/poses/drama/performance/irony etc. than his emulators, who are largely aiming at copying the scenery
― ogmor, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 15:35 (six years ago) link
thinking about it, i think pajo is a better guitarist than all the other guys we've mentioned
― ogmor, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 15:36 (six years ago) link
based on what? (I like Pajo)
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 16:14 (six years ago) link
I bit of what I reckonry, but with Cooder/Fahey it's like the difference between the picturesque and the sublime: the former is safe, soothing and maternal, the latter is Other, dangerous, disturbing. Both equally valid, like, but only one is truly imitable.
Fwiw, I think Tortoise are more the former.
And Jim O'Rourke is kind of fraud, I think (and wouldn't mind be called on it), but he's like David Byrne or someone, where they come so close to the line it actually ceases to matter.
― The shard-borne beetle with his drowsy hums (Chinaski), Tuesday, 13 March 2018 16:15 (six years ago) link
It's not like they named a song on their first album "Ry Cooder" or anything.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 16:18 (six years ago) link
xxp all the others besides Fahey, obviously, I'm not being absurd. Pajo is quietly original and distinctive in his harmonies, tunings and phrasing, and his low-key greatness is attested by his facility for gorgeous elliptical melodies & counter melodies, and he occasionally gets to those moments of joyous heart-bursting immediacy that are worth more than Good Guitarists' whole careers
JOR is very mannered and arch and composerly and sort of hideously superficial but I like him anyway
― ogmor, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 16:34 (six years ago) link
JOR, man, that guy...no comment. I've now listened to TNT four or five times after basically not hearing it for over a decade. I think it only seems profound, it's wallpaper, but there are moments I adore. Miles, Jon Hassell, David Behrman, they cut them to shreds, though.
― eddhurt, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 19:36 (six years ago) link
Serious question: would you know who Hassell and Behrman (and possibly even Miles) were if you had't heard Tortoise first? I ask because I will freely admit that a lot of this post rock stuff was a gateway for me to dub, fusion, and lots of other music that I listen obsessively to today. I'm sure I was aware of Miles Davis before Tortoise, and might have even heard Kind of Blue or something, but that feeling I got when I heard IASW for the first time and thought "ohhhhh...so this is where it all comes from" might not have ever happened if I didn't read in an Isotope 217 review that that Miles record was a major touchstone for all those Chicago guys
Ditto latest ILX punching bag Jim O'Rourke, without whom I wouldn't know Tony Conrad, Folke Rabe, Loren Connors, possibly Fahey, etc
While I would definitely rather listen to Jon Hassell or Miles than Tortoise or Gastr Del Sol (Behrman not so much), I think the idea that they "cut them to shreds" is maybe overstating it a bit
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 19:57 (six years ago) link
Tortoise has hooks, though. And beats. That's why it's much less wallpaper-y than what I've heard of Jon Hassell. And why it holds up better than an Isotope 217 or Chicago Underground Duo record. The idea of someone soloing over their music is, like, gross to me.
― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 13 March 2018 20:06 (six years ago) link
Jordan otm. I can hum every tune on TNT and I haven't heard the damn thing in over a decade
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 20:13 (six years ago) link
miles davis is one of the greatest musicians of all time
tortoise made a few nice timely records
― j., Tuesday, 13 March 2018 20:54 (six years ago) link
Paul, I heard Hassell, Miles, Behrman, Morricone, Reich waaay before I heard Tortoise, whose music hasn't led me to one single thing. To me, Tortoise is an afterthought, sincere young fellows trying to make their nice little demi-fusion thing or whatever that is, and without the balls of the best fusion stuff, or jazz. I like TNT, and it does have some hooks for sure. I think it's a triumph of editing and trimming for sure. To my ears Jon Hassel's stuff is way richer, way less concerned with superficial aspects of music like "hooks," and just plain deeper--his Bluescreen stuff is as kinetic as the music he's imitating or lifting from, wheras Tortoise is...more pallid, suburban, kinda neurotic in a way. This is part of my whole disagreement with post rock--for sure I worked my way backwards from, say, Mahavishnu Ork to Duke Ellington, but at the same time I knew plenty about real jazz--Ellington, 'Trane, Parker, Armstrong, Earl Hines, Basie, Ornette--when I was sitting around grooving to Birds of Fire and whatever the fuck it was, King Crimson or some such thing. My generation, at least, knew about the stuff; and I think the post rockers were just too damned clean, too convinced they were onto something that transcended the dirty old world of jazz and rock. I can't take it very seriously, but as I say, TNT is a record I still quite enjoy, perhaps partly for nostalgic reasons.
― eddhurt, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 20:57 (six years ago) link
superficial aspects of music like "hooks,"
Oh no you did not
― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 13 March 2018 20:59 (six years ago) link
dude do you even know how many soundtracks Morricone has released? in different styles? it's not all speghetti western harmonicats
― brimstead, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 21:11 (six years ago) link
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, March 12, 2018 5:16 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
there's something really conspiratorial about the omnipresence of ry cooder.. like what is the point of ry cooder records? who are they for? sorry, ry.
― brimstead, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 21:13 (six years ago) link