Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

this thread has got so clusterf'd that i almost trolling spamming links to late 90s latino crossover pop hits here to derail it

instead i will just listen to bailamos by enrique iglesias and bid you good people adieu

I’m sympathetic to fgti whose words are coming I think out of suffering and frustration but I don’t think it forwards whatever discourse we are trying to have here. I’m not offended and I don’t feel threatened personally but it makes me not want to participate on ilx bc I wonder what possible value could I get out of these conversations whose engagement with the thread title is men have been heard from enough, they should shut up, genocide would be ideal, all men are guilty, all men are guilty no matter what they do bc of idpol original sin, etc. enough sentiment like this, even glibly, and my feeling is “wow these ppl are fucking assholes with idiot rhetoric” and then in orbit dives in to otm one or two of these sentiments idk you’re all a bunch of privileged ppl you should stop running these victimhood rackets and grow up is what I mostly think

When an person makes a statement that reads "this dialogue has been derailed because I am having an emotional response to something that you are speaking about on an intellectual level" then I retract and step back

So with that in mind, I retract my call for all men to be genocided

I believe that all men should be ground up and served as manburgers

mmm, manwich.....

K sorry for the derail

Drunk on afternoon coffee and bloodlust

manburger sounds a little too sexy

http://https%3A//pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/771383363588554753/mg7_P0J-_400x400.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/771383363588554753/mg7_P0J-_400x400.jpg

(trying to post a manwich obv)

lads today is int'l women's day

let's all take a break from this today and we'll continue it tomorrow

tbh that extreme stuff used to tend to irritate me -- like, why can't we just speak about actual ideal situations, etc -- but when it's against a backdrop where it seems like parody, it's more about venting steam and shifting the overton window

there are actual political figures who say things about how feminism has wrecked family life, women have specific places and we should bow to that in legislation, etc. and somehow people can do that shit without real outcry

every day would be women's day if there were no men

We outcry that stuff all the time it’s a major fault line in the culture wars and basically every single poster on ilx is on the anti those ppl side of the war!

but a lot of us deal with all kinds of people outside ilx who definitely aren't

hate to find myself agreeing w mordy the jordan peterson of ilx but the male genocide/"kill all men" jokes are dumb considering gender is not the only cultural dividing line in our society & certain other dividing lines are oriented around i.e. historic genocides or the killing of men by police

like i get it in a therapeutic sense but i think its kind of bad form in ~intersectional~ conversation

Better the jp of ilx than the deej of life tbph and I don’t think v much of jp

which part of your background tells you being a shithead is a positive social behavior

Oh no you called me a shithead what will I do probably nothing bc lol who the fuck cares what you think of me or anything

So, on the stereotypical american dude behavior topic the thread's about

I had beers with a few coworkers after work yesterday and a guy I've only met a couple times was there. Dude's a talker. Over the course of conversation I listen to him and he:
- Blasts a bunch of coworkers, especially older ones who act bureaucratically
- Brief aside about guns being fine and eludes vaguely to "people blaming guns"
- Anecdotes about his time in the military (mostly in the 80s/90s)
- Talked about his prior job sending him to an anger management therapy
- Announces he's going to the VFW to drink after this, and going to have his wife and teen kid come over to pick him and his car up
- Indicates the prior point is kind of a standard thing and "she better bring <kid> or drive my truck because I'm not driving her car to work tomorrow"

I haven't run into one of these dudes forever but the ranty abrasiveness was really something. There were probably a dozen small points where he seemed slightly aggrieved about some element or another of life and I was just in awe about where this guy appeared from that I ran into him in 2018

which part of your background tells you being a shithead is a positive social behavior

lol that’s actually probably otm

Man oh man wouldn't that theoretical anti-Jordan Peterson messiah and his theoretical rhetoric about taking pleasure and joy in the forfeiture of power and voice be useful right now

But in seriousness

The "kill all men" jokes aren't really jokes, imo-- nor are they relegated to maleness alone ("no more white babies!"). But it's not literal actual death. The process of "killing" the male voice, removing the agency of the male, these are things that are happening socially and structurally

The fact that there was any O___O to Yerac's anecdotes about her marriage dynamic is kind of telling... why is it so surprising that her husband, within an assumedly equal power dynamic, would be routinely checked and/or told to stay in his lane? (I paraphrase)

My own experience in being in a relationship with a black man, and being one of only two white men in his list of twenty closest friends-- the majority are POCs and/or women-- has put me in a near constant state of checking myself. I do not go with him to this party or that (where my white body would not be appreciated), and have once even left a party because it was clear that my mere presence at said party was making a person uncomfortable

Old Lunch (I think?) said earlier that white men need to hang out with more non-white non-men and my own experience being in that scenario has been one of being socially "killed"-- the people who accept me as their friend's partner and welcome me into their homes, I will still be in a constant state of self-censorship-- (do not participate in the conversation going on about examples of how nbpoc's appropriate black experience, do some dishes instead). If ever I feel uncomfortable or un-empowered, I remember the basic tenet that It's Not About Me, Personally. I'm in love with this man and his friends. And part of the experience of that love involves removing some of the social agency that I've previously experienced in white/male-dominated environments

*forfeiting some of the social agency, not removing, I suppose

Oh no you called me a shithead what will I do probably nothing bc lol who the fuck cares what you think of me or anything

― Mordy, Thursday, March 8, 2018 3:52 PM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the people having a conversation with me while you jump in to police a poster's relationship

These days I'm more likely to have to deal with "You're in America--speak ENGLISH!"-type opinions--the principal of a local high school had the chance to host a day of free, confidential immigration legal assistance and he declined because it was, in his estimation, "too political." So most of my ability to be patient and convincing with ppl gets eaten up by that black hole instead of the patriarchy one. I kinda forgot about people like that drunk co-worker guy.

Although the other week at a party a friend of a friend said, casually, "What is sexual harassment these days, anyway? I feel like men really don't know what's okay anymore! (laughs) Like am I going to get in trouble?" I literally backed away slowly and pretended I couldn't hear him.

Started reading the thread hours ago, such a great conversation started started by fgti.
Had to go to choir for four hours.
Comes back, sees there's hundreds of hundreds of new messages. Yay!
They're basically all about how Mordy feels...

He's upset about something.

fgti xpost. I think most people who are poc, women are in a constant state of checking themselves, picking up on queues, not assuming that you are the expert on any topic or that your opinion deserves to be shared, especially when you haven't personally experienced it. You get it.

how we all doin tonight

Anyhow, this is a prime example of how unproductive these discussions are and how the hivemind self-proliferates unto infinity. What a waste.

brb ive the washing up to do and the clothes to hang out while she yogas

and thats not IWD thats just a thursday ladies :-*

“Upset about something” good thing I’m a male being marginalized bc of my emotions and not a woman amirite

its ironic (or maybe not at all ironic but purposeful?) Mordy's way of getting under my skin is telling me no one cares what i think which is kind of the masculine fear, right? Our value is that our authority matters to people, that this authority is the source of both social and economic capital, and in turn it allows us to spread that capital: you are successful in part due to white male privilege which gives you certain benefits which in turn attracts people to your success, because they want to be successful too. In this way our economic insecurity becomes tied to our personal insecurity, which breeds a kind of faith in the theater of authoritativeness--a belief in the inherent value of male literary canon, or the trustworthiness of the male news anchor, etc.--and a mimetic performance of masculine authoritativeness ends up replicating itself in the social world. This performance of authoritativeness *works* (cf jordan peterson) because it creates a kind of aura of confidence and certainty. it seems to me there's a difference between genuine confidence and the performance of confidence.

this is a partially formed thought idk

xp @ Yerac: then maybe all that needs to happen for a men to truly empathize with women, check their agency, engage in self-censorship, is to find themselves in a loving relationship with a woman

...

lol

But seriously the thing I said earlier about "not engaging with somebody intellectually when the argument affects them emotionally", even if it was a setup to a joke, I meant it-- this is actually the second time I've used the word "genocide" in public discourse and had it turn into a "is fgti Hitler?" sideshow

--I played a lot of Nethack and when I think "holocaust" I think of the Holocaust and when I think "genocide" I think "bless that scroll of genocide and read it and remove all 'h's from the game, those mind flayers are a bitch"--

--but point taken, I've taken the word "genocide" from my vocabulary of discourse and... guillotined it.

But yeah-- that's essentially what I've come to define "edgelord" as being. "Somebody who engages in intellectual debate with somebody, knowing that their 'opponent' has an emotional attachment to the debate that they cannot separate themselves from".

It happened to me last summer that I was speaking to one of my bf's friends, and we were talking about "how could anybody possibly ever work with Woody Allen?" We were talking about it, and then she said, "yeah, anybody who works with Woody Allen and/or Roman Polanski, I just can't fuck with their work" and I felt my head cock to one side, and suddenly I was discussing the difference between these two filmmakers, and the different circumstances of their crimes, and how even Mia Farrow supports Polanski, and the difficulty of removing Polanski's great work from the canon of film, and cluelessly I did not see this woman's jaw dropping further and further until she left the party and texted my bf that I was, essentially, an asshole

I spoke about it with my therapist, like, "I can talk with my mom about Roman Polanski for days and not have her assuming I'm siding with a child rapist," but my therapist she informed me that she herself was having an emotional response to even the mere mention of Polanski and so

I was like

I get it

Old Lunch (I think?) said earlier that white men need to hang out with more non-white non-men and my own experience being in that scenario has been one of being socially "killed"-- the people who accept me as their friend's partner and welcome me into their homes, I will still be in a constant state of self-censorship-- (do not participate in the conversation going on about examples of how nbpoc's appropriate black experience, do some dishes instead). If ever I feel uncomfortable or un-empowered, I remember the basic tenet that It's Not About Me, Personally. I'm in love with this man and his friends. And part of the experience of that love involves removing some of the social agency that I've previously experienced in white/male-dominated environments

― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, March 8, 2018 10:05 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes to OL and this post! It was life-changing for me when I started getting into community work with a Black-led organization and ended up falling in love with the people there and the world they're building. I check myself a lot and try to do supportive labor like working at events so other ppl can socialize or be featured in presentations, I support Black leadership by affirming their decisions and promoting them to other community members, I give them money to support with my economic privilege, and so on.

Just as another example of supporting people with different identities than mine, I live in a historically Black community with strong block associations and residents' councils. My block assn has been in states of transition for a few years, and I've been asked to run for an office. From one perspective, I have just as much right to do so as anyone--I live there, I'm a good neighbor and community-builder, I care about the organization and want it to succeed, and I have the skills--but I've always declined and suggested a support role instead, because I think it's important to be under non-white leadership. Even if I think I could do it, or would do things differently, I just elementally couldn't because I can't represent a Black community. So I minimize myself, in a way, with love for the people who get to be maximized in the space I'm not taking up. It honestly feels pretty great! I highly recommend it.

I got emotional reading that, in orbit!

I don't have a comparative experience except that I just turned down a request to be a part of a "marginalized voices" program of new music-- I'm not marginalized. "You're gay." Not the same. "David Lang is doing it." Nope. Here's a list of POC composers.

Right after the election I was trying to explain to my brother the degrees of ptsd that a lot of women were going through in regards to having a serial harasser/predator elected and the significance of it all. I can be as illustrative as it takes to try to get someone to empathize/relate. His takeaway "Why do you hate white men so much, when you are obviously married to one. Why are you so angry, do you realize how luck you are." The disconnect was overwhelming. It's not all about me and it's not all about you.

xpost I vouch in what in orbit does. I may have never have said it, but I see it.

its ironic (or maybe not at all ironic but purposeful?) Mordy's way of getting under my skin is telling me no one cares what i think which is kind of the masculine fear, right? Our value is that our authority matters to people, that this authority is the source of both social and economic capital, and in turn it allows us to spread that capital: you are successful in part due to white male privilege which gives you certain benefits which in turn attracts people to your success, because they want to be successful too. In this way our economic insecurity becomes tied to our personal insecurity, which breeds a kind of faith in the theater of authoritativeness--a belief in the inherent value of male literary canon, or the trustworthiness of the male news anchor, etc.--and a mimetic performance of masculine authoritativeness ends up replicating itself in the social world. This performance of authoritativeness *works* (cf jordan peterson) because it creates a kind of aura of confidence and certainty. it seems to me there's a difference between genuine confidence and the performance of confidence.

this is a partially formed thought idk

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, March 8, 2018 4:40 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

part of what i'm trying to get at here though is that this is reinforced in all kinds of economic ways, that even if we're *self aware* about how this is all a facade, it's still an economic reality that it will be easier for a white man to get someone to hand the check over to him. This is embedded deeply into the way society functions *en masse* and isn't something that can be undone via individual behaviors. I mean, I hope more people think about it, the way I hope people just be "considerate" in general, but it still fails as a solution to the broader problem.

will i just poll a us/non us split of all srs discussion on ilx or are there further subplots ppl like

cant you and mordy stick to your group chat where theres definitely no gossip happening

i keep it clean as a whistle there fyi and im not backing mordy itt

not it was in any way relevant to the question, what are you afraid of man

tbf gossiping about anonymous dns is not really the same as gossiping about flesh and blood humans but point taken it’s not attractive behavior no matter who the target

btw deems is 100% backing me do not accept this disavowal

US/non US/Frederik imo.

my conscience is clear re chatz i think

i think this was a pretty interesting direction, better than usual on the subject around here

i do think that yeracs stuff on her husband was a bit of a step back to the usual on the subject around here but not in any way to the extent that i morally disapproved of it or anything that was a ridiculous digression

i do think it speaks somewhat of women treating men- the men they like/love even (especially?) like children and imo thats no way to address anything and is a behaviour that needs deep breath ~~~calling out~~~ as deep breath ~~~toxic~~~

i do think that my pointing out that ilx likes to treat men qua "mens behaviour" as children will be the subject of jumped upon lololololol folds arms but they are! i win point proven THANK YOU responses which is yknow the level ye are at as a board thats ok its not the greatest evil in the world but it is stupid and id suspect its a nice pretence in a shitty world outside of ilx for ye, god bless.

i think that if mh, who i like very much and i think likes me, tries to manmansplain me to the rest of ye about this i may just die of it

i love ye all mostly is about it really

xpost D-40, economic security is a huge part of it. I am mostly against the institution of marriage because women have historically given up their agency through it. You cannot have any sense of freedom if you are financially dependent.

One concrete example where "check yourself" rhetoric helped me recently...I've been DJing more recently, and making/playing a particular sort of dance music, and there aren't a lot of opportunities to do that in the town where I live (mostly stodgy techno, corny EDM, etc). The one night where it would make sense is, of course, the queer one.

I'm friendly with one of the women who run it and have attended when they've had more open 'anyone welcome' events. I've played queer nights with friends in other cities, and thought it would really make sense musically, so I asked about the possibility of doing something together. It turns out they put their money where their mouths are and are not trying to book a straight white male.

My initial internal reaction was to bristle a little (their loss, I play more fun sets than they do, etc), but it was constructive to sit with that and accept that I have no particular right to be in that space, and that maybe I just won't have the opportunity to dj here, and that's fine.

darragh’s just baiting me now but I’m still going to follow through with my threat of showing up at his place to buy him beers someday

lots of great recent posts itt, good job all around

shit mh you *buying* beers well thats difft