Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

xpost, in orbit, yeah he's so nice that a lot of violent, aggressive male behaviours is just so out of his scope. And I think he just thinks he's being informative and helpful when he over-explains or takes over a conversation. I just think he never practiced picking up on social queues and reading the room (like a lot of men).

And yeah, I am not going to police myself just because someone labels a personal anecdote as gossip.It's not the proper term for this. If you find any story about a spouse distasteful because you hold the sanctity of marriage super special, that's your deal.

The one time I was completely silent to friends about a relationship was when it was actually incredibly dysfunctional. I don't think that plays into most relationships or is a norm, but I've been hypersensitive since then whenever someone I know well is completely silent on the subject of their marriage or long-term situation. 99% of the time it's completely normal, and it's male friends who aren't socialized to talk about it.

lol stop no one is suggesting that we "genocide" men, who have had the upper hand over women for basically like ever, everywhere. The problem is the opposite--that the work of healing from patriarchy, of undoing men's general privilege over other genders, has to happen while we live side by side before, during, and after the work. You can depose an unjust ruler, you can rebel against a regime, you can replace a hated religion with a new orthodoxy, but we can't not have men in our societies. So given this, we might need to adopt some new models for resistance and transition and maintaining ties with each other.

Right no one is suggesting it bc it’s impractical but the subtext is wouldn’t it be nice and if that doesn’t bother you

tbh if men would get their own shit figured out without dragging everyone else into it that could be better

^^^ This is how I feel a lot of the time. Tell your brothers to get their shit together without stepping on our necks.

*drinking my mug of male tears* no worries punching up why do you ppl keep getting bothered don’t you know you control society?

xxp otm!

I'm a man and I love to gossip, and don't think of it in a gendered way. But I also kinda know it's bad to talk about people in an unflattering way when they're not around, and I'm trying not to do it.

Then again, the 'lashon hara' thing that Mordy was talking about is literally the only thing from my Jewish upbringing that ever stuck with me as a possibly valuable lesson.

xxxxxp

"are we all bad?"

very bad. but when you're good you're very very good.

I think it's worth asking not to use ott language like "genocide", acting in good faith that you understand they're not being literal, and hinging argument on an assumption actual genocide was endorsed

fwiw I think Judaism emphasizes not gossiping more than other religions, is my impression. Also I guess what I was originally talking about is broader than gossip, maybe also sort of confessional talk, whining, etc. All of which could be seen as gendered female and "unmanly." But in any case I've had friends be like "I don't talk about that stuff" in re their relationships and it seemed to be some sort of stoic man code thing.

I don’t think they were literally endorsing genocide but what a high standard they only figuratively endorse it

xp - lots of protestant strains of Christianity are very very anti-gossip

Can you assholes stop speaking for me

I am literally suggesting that we genocide all men

Or at least handcuff them to something until we're needed

i totally have yenta tendencies that i curb.

lol fgti

Mordy, can you agree that you found the use of the word hurtful and insensitive? Because the language you're using is removing the human element, that this phrasing affects actual people here, and your condemnation is in very passive-aggressive terms

I get that a lot of debate is in abstract terms but it's useful when we're speaking as members of a community to just say "Hey don't say genocide, I find that personally offensive"

fgti going hard on the other side, though. sheesh

what the dickens is going on here

srsly charlie i want answers

Masochism, mostly.

this thread has got so clusterf'd that i almost trolling spamming links to late 90s latino crossover pop hits here to derail it

instead i will just listen to bailamos by enrique iglesias and bid you good people adieu

I’m sympathetic to fgti whose words are coming I think out of suffering and frustration but I don’t think it forwards whatever discourse we are trying to have here. I’m not offended and I don’t feel threatened personally but it makes me not want to participate on ilx bc I wonder what possible value could I get out of these conversations whose engagement with the thread title is men have been heard from enough, they should shut up, genocide would be ideal, all men are guilty, all men are guilty no matter what they do bc of idpol original sin, etc. enough sentiment like this, even glibly, and my feeling is “wow these ppl are fucking assholes with idiot rhetoric” and then in orbit dives in to otm one or two of these sentiments idk you’re all a bunch of privileged ppl you should stop running these victimhood rackets and grow up is what I mostly think

When an person makes a statement that reads "this dialogue has been derailed because I am having an emotional response to something that you are speaking about on an intellectual level" then I retract and step back

So with that in mind, I retract my call for all men to be genocided

I believe that all men should be ground up and served as manburgers

mmm, manwich.....

K sorry for the derail

Drunk on afternoon coffee and bloodlust

manburger sounds a little too sexy

http://https%3A//pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/771383363588554753/mg7_P0J-_400x400.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/771383363588554753/mg7_P0J-_400x400.jpg

(trying to post a manwich obv)

lads today is int'l women's day

let's all take a break from this today and we'll continue it tomorrow

tbh that extreme stuff used to tend to irritate me -- like, why can't we just speak about actual ideal situations, etc -- but when it's against a backdrop where it seems like parody, it's more about venting steam and shifting the overton window

there are actual political figures who say things about how feminism has wrecked family life, women have specific places and we should bow to that in legislation, etc. and somehow people can do that shit without real outcry

every day would be women's day if there were no men

We outcry that stuff all the time it’s a major fault line in the culture wars and basically every single poster on ilx is on the anti those ppl side of the war!

but a lot of us deal with all kinds of people outside ilx who definitely aren't

hate to find myself agreeing w mordy the jordan peterson of ilx but the male genocide/"kill all men" jokes are dumb considering gender is not the only cultural dividing line in our society & certain other dividing lines are oriented around i.e. historic genocides or the killing of men by police

like i get it in a therapeutic sense but i think its kind of bad form in ~intersectional~ conversation

Better the jp of ilx than the deej of life tbph and I don’t think v much of jp

which part of your background tells you being a shithead is a positive social behavior

Oh no you called me a shithead what will I do probably nothing bc lol who the fuck cares what you think of me or anything

So, on the stereotypical american dude behavior topic the thread's about

I had beers with a few coworkers after work yesterday and a guy I've only met a couple times was there. Dude's a talker. Over the course of conversation I listen to him and he:
- Blasts a bunch of coworkers, especially older ones who act bureaucratically
- Brief aside about guns being fine and eludes vaguely to "people blaming guns"
- Anecdotes about his time in the military (mostly in the 80s/90s)
- Talked about his prior job sending him to an anger management therapy
- Announces he's going to the VFW to drink after this, and going to have his wife and teen kid come over to pick him and his car up
- Indicates the prior point is kind of a standard thing and "she better bring <kid> or drive my truck because I'm not driving her car to work tomorrow"

I haven't run into one of these dudes forever but the ranty abrasiveness was really something. There were probably a dozen small points where he seemed slightly aggrieved about some element or another of life and I was just in awe about where this guy appeared from that I ran into him in 2018

which part of your background tells you being a shithead is a positive social behavior

lol that’s actually probably otm

Man oh man wouldn't that theoretical anti-Jordan Peterson messiah and his theoretical rhetoric about taking pleasure and joy in the forfeiture of power and voice be useful right now

But in seriousness

The "kill all men" jokes aren't really jokes, imo-- nor are they relegated to maleness alone ("no more white babies!"). But it's not literal actual death. The process of "killing" the male voice, removing the agency of the male, these are things that are happening socially and structurally

The fact that there was any O___O to Yerac's anecdotes about her marriage dynamic is kind of telling... why is it so surprising that her husband, within an assumedly equal power dynamic, would be routinely checked and/or told to stay in his lane? (I paraphrase)

My own experience in being in a relationship with a black man, and being one of only two white men in his list of twenty closest friends-- the majority are POCs and/or women-- has put me in a near constant state of checking myself. I do not go with him to this party or that (where my white body would not be appreciated), and have once even left a party because it was clear that my mere presence at said party was making a person uncomfortable

Old Lunch (I think?) said earlier that white men need to hang out with more non-white non-men and my own experience being in that scenario has been one of being socially "killed"-- the people who accept me as their friend's partner and welcome me into their homes, I will still be in a constant state of self-censorship-- (do not participate in the conversation going on about examples of how nbpoc's appropriate black experience, do some dishes instead). If ever I feel uncomfortable or un-empowered, I remember the basic tenet that It's Not About Me, Personally. I'm in love with this man and his friends. And part of the experience of that love involves removing some of the social agency that I've previously experienced in white/male-dominated environments

*forfeiting some of the social agency, not removing, I suppose

Oh no you called me a shithead what will I do probably nothing bc lol who the fuck cares what you think of me or anything

― Mordy, Thursday, March 8, 2018 3:52 PM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the people having a conversation with me while you jump in to police a poster's relationship

These days I'm more likely to have to deal with "You're in America--speak ENGLISH!"-type opinions--the principal of a local high school had the chance to host a day of free, confidential immigration legal assistance and he declined because it was, in his estimation, "too political." So most of my ability to be patient and convincing with ppl gets eaten up by that black hole instead of the patriarchy one. I kinda forgot about people like that drunk co-worker guy.

Although the other week at a party a friend of a friend said, casually, "What is sexual harassment these days, anyway? I feel like men really don't know what's okay anymore! (laughs) Like am I going to get in trouble?" I literally backed away slowly and pretended I couldn't hear him.

Started reading the thread hours ago, such a great conversation started started by fgti.
Had to go to choir for four hours.
Comes back, sees there's hundreds of hundreds of new messages. Yay!
They're basically all about how Mordy feels...