Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

...I think there might have been a breakdown where the word "gossip" got applied to Yerac's illustration of a personal experience to make her point? Like, saying that gossip is a word with baggage, that maybe it would be preferable to use carefully, has nothing to do with her right to tell her story or your right to say that you wouldn't choose to do so in her place.

I feel like this is so off-track I'm at a loss to bring it back to the great posts by soref, fgti, et al.

Of course those great posts were about how in an ideal world genocide might be a good answer

practically it would be the only short term solution. but uh ... pretty sure they were kidding, similarly if they had stated, what we need is a superior alien civilization to conquer the Earth and elevate women.

Just punching up.

xp

this is how we got to "gossip" and I feel like man alive was getting on to an underlying thing about how we categorize speech but it took a quick derail!

FWIW there's also a strain of old-fashioned "man-code"-ism that I've come across where guys say they don't discuss their relationships. I don't know where this originated or how far back it goes, but it seems like it's associated with it being "unmanly" to gossip.

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, March 8, 2018 2:19 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's not unmanly to gossip. it's bad human behavior period.

― Mordy, Thursday, March 8, 2018 2:20 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

gay men talk to each other all the time about who fuct who, etc.

are we all bad?

Mh otm that knowing what your partner would want you to discuss with others is key. I just met a woman and I respect her so much I couldn't imagine airing dirty laundry or personal details

xp - it is a way in which gay men are equated with women

you're only a real man if you banter about things and challenge norms, but any analytical touchy-feely talk is off the table. it has to have an air of judgment! and usually negative.

xpost, in orbit, yeah he's so nice that a lot of violent, aggressive male behaviours is just so out of his scope. And I think he just thinks he's being informative and helpful when he over-explains or takes over a conversation. I just think he never practiced picking up on social queues and reading the room (like a lot of men).

And yeah, I am not going to police myself just because someone labels a personal anecdote as gossip.It's not the proper term for this. If you find any story about a spouse distasteful because you hold the sanctity of marriage super special, that's your deal.

The one time I was completely silent to friends about a relationship was when it was actually incredibly dysfunctional. I don't think that plays into most relationships or is a norm, but I've been hypersensitive since then whenever someone I know well is completely silent on the subject of their marriage or long-term situation. 99% of the time it's completely normal, and it's male friends who aren't socialized to talk about it.

lol stop no one is suggesting that we "genocide" men, who have had the upper hand over women for basically like ever, everywhere. The problem is the opposite--that the work of healing from patriarchy, of undoing men's general privilege over other genders, has to happen while we live side by side before, during, and after the work. You can depose an unjust ruler, you can rebel against a regime, you can replace a hated religion with a new orthodoxy, but we can't not have men in our societies. So given this, we might need to adopt some new models for resistance and transition and maintaining ties with each other.

Right no one is suggesting it bc it’s impractical but the subtext is wouldn’t it be nice and if that doesn’t bother you

tbh if men would get their own shit figured out without dragging everyone else into it that could be better

^^^ This is how I feel a lot of the time. Tell your brothers to get their shit together without stepping on our necks.

*drinking my mug of male tears* no worries punching up why do you ppl keep getting bothered don’t you know you control society?

xxp otm!

I'm a man and I love to gossip, and don't think of it in a gendered way. But I also kinda know it's bad to talk about people in an unflattering way when they're not around, and I'm trying not to do it.

Then again, the 'lashon hara' thing that Mordy was talking about is literally the only thing from my Jewish upbringing that ever stuck with me as a possibly valuable lesson.

xxxxxp

"are we all bad?"

very bad. but when you're good you're very very good.

I think it's worth asking not to use ott language like "genocide", acting in good faith that you understand they're not being literal, and hinging argument on an assumption actual genocide was endorsed

fwiw I think Judaism emphasizes not gossiping more than other religions, is my impression. Also I guess what I was originally talking about is broader than gossip, maybe also sort of confessional talk, whining, etc. All of which could be seen as gendered female and "unmanly." But in any case I've had friends be like "I don't talk about that stuff" in re their relationships and it seemed to be some sort of stoic man code thing.

I don’t think they were literally endorsing genocide but what a high standard they only figuratively endorse it

xp - lots of protestant strains of Christianity are very very anti-gossip

Can you assholes stop speaking for me

I am literally suggesting that we genocide all men

Or at least handcuff them to something until we're needed

i totally have yenta tendencies that i curb.

lol fgti

Mordy, can you agree that you found the use of the word hurtful and insensitive? Because the language you're using is removing the human element, that this phrasing affects actual people here, and your condemnation is in very passive-aggressive terms

I get that a lot of debate is in abstract terms but it's useful when we're speaking as members of a community to just say "Hey don't say genocide, I find that personally offensive"

fgti going hard on the other side, though. sheesh

what the dickens is going on here

srsly charlie i want answers

Masochism, mostly.

this thread has got so clusterf'd that i almost trolling spamming links to late 90s latino crossover pop hits here to derail it

instead i will just listen to bailamos by enrique iglesias and bid you good people adieu

I’m sympathetic to fgti whose words are coming I think out of suffering and frustration but I don’t think it forwards whatever discourse we are trying to have here. I’m not offended and I don’t feel threatened personally but it makes me not want to participate on ilx bc I wonder what possible value could I get out of these conversations whose engagement with the thread title is men have been heard from enough, they should shut up, genocide would be ideal, all men are guilty, all men are guilty no matter what they do bc of idpol original sin, etc. enough sentiment like this, even glibly, and my feeling is “wow these ppl are fucking assholes with idiot rhetoric” and then in orbit dives in to otm one or two of these sentiments idk you’re all a bunch of privileged ppl you should stop running these victimhood rackets and grow up is what I mostly think

When an person makes a statement that reads "this dialogue has been derailed because I am having an emotional response to something that you are speaking about on an intellectual level" then I retract and step back

So with that in mind, I retract my call for all men to be genocided

I believe that all men should be ground up and served as manburgers

mmm, manwich.....

K sorry for the derail

Drunk on afternoon coffee and bloodlust

manburger sounds a little too sexy

http://https%3A//pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/771383363588554753/mg7_P0J-_400x400.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/771383363588554753/mg7_P0J-_400x400.jpg

(trying to post a manwich obv)

lads today is int'l women's day

let's all take a break from this today and we'll continue it tomorrow

tbh that extreme stuff used to tend to irritate me -- like, why can't we just speak about actual ideal situations, etc -- but when it's against a backdrop where it seems like parody, it's more about venting steam and shifting the overton window

there are actual political figures who say things about how feminism has wrecked family life, women have specific places and we should bow to that in legislation, etc. and somehow people can do that shit without real outcry

every day would be women's day if there were no men

We outcry that stuff all the time it’s a major fault line in the culture wars and basically every single poster on ilx is on the anti those ppl side of the war!

but a lot of us deal with all kinds of people outside ilx who definitely aren't

hate to find myself agreeing w mordy the jordan peterson of ilx but the male genocide/"kill all men" jokes are dumb considering gender is not the only cultural dividing line in our society & certain other dividing lines are oriented around i.e. historic genocides or the killing of men by police

like i get it in a therapeutic sense but i think its kind of bad form in ~intersectional~ conversation

Better the jp of ilx than the deej of life tbph and I don’t think v much of jp

which part of your background tells you being a shithead is a positive social behavior