Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

(imo there is some extent to which this is oddly similar to the bedsit loser alt-right/4chan worldview, the impossibility of a 'good' white man is a common feature)

― soref

the key word in the above is in scare quotes. pretty much everybody in the world except for white man has had to confront people in the world not thinking they are 'good' because of their racial or gender identity! now all of a sudden this language is being used against white men - not even in the sense that it's used against women and poc, but in the insistence that people be judged by their _actions_ and not some nebulous notion of innate "goodness" - and they're scared and angry. i don't think there's anything wrong with white men being scared and angry. i don't think there's anything wrong with white men being fragile or weak. what is wrong is the increasingly desperate and unhinged attempts for "validation" these fragile, weak men seek from svengalis like jordan peterson, or by attempting to continue the "dialogue" on their terms, or with hashtags like #notallmen. white men who cannot accept or deal with non-male, non-white perspectives, who choose instead to cling to increasingly implausible power fantasies, are useless. worse than useless, really.

I mean, historically I'm sure that has played a significant part in reinforcing male domination, much like the travails of pregnancy (cf. Beauvoir), but I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'we can only try to manage it in palliative ways but never really end it'. How useful is this extra oomph in a technologically advanced society? Aside from its almost vestigial function as an indicator of 'good genes'.

xp

I've brought this up in the past, but I'm still curious, how do Eastern European white males fit into this model?

Asking for a friend.

rush, #notallmen is not a beta male hashtag its a hashtag used to co-opt every man into #toxicmasculinity

It's International Women's Day today. I think to put things into perspective, you have to remember that during a lot of our lifetimes, women only just got the right to open their own bank account, get their own credit card, keep a job while pregnant, divorce their spouse, had the idea that a spouse could rape them accepted. This wiki page has a list of international legal rights collated. It's important to remember how intertwined all of this is, family dynamics, abusive households, women being unable to leave, the trauma passed down to children for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women%27s_legal_rights_(other_than_voting)

now all of a sudden this language is being used against white men - not even in the sense that it's used against women and poc, but in the insistence that people be judged by their _actions_ and not some nebulous notion of innate "goodness"

I think it's something more than insistence that white men be judged by their actions though, because what their actions mean and the consequences of their actions are shaped by the fact that they are actions being carried out by white men, there's a sense in which it doesn't really matter if you're a man who does the 'right' thing because your position as a white man and the huge impersonal society-shaping forces of race and gender will always count for more than any good or bad actions you as an individual might perform - I think this is maybe kind of similar to what fgti is getting at where he talks about white men being woke being a dead-end because they are retaining their position in the system but with a veneer of virtuousness?

this is maybe a tension in the online-social-justice movement or whatever you want to call it, on the one hand there's a hyper-focus on shaming people from privileged groups who have said/done the wrong thing in some particular instance, but there's also implicit in their worldview the idea that any individual choices or actions a specific person makes will count always be less significant in forming their identity, and in what impact they have on the world than their race and gender? (NB I'm not disagreeing, I think that this is probably correct)

how can you type that and then decide you agree with it

its and watch the word choice here toxic

yeah what the fuck

that isn't even socially just. it implies fixity of gender for one thing, and it denies racial nuance. it is abysmal thinking

Yerac makes a good point that a good number of far more uncontroversial battles are yet to be fully won tbh - not that I'm dismissing ID politics as they're all part of the same interrelated thing, but...easy to take the eye off the ball. obviously it is not good that these rights have to be 'given' to women (presumably by men)

Even if you as a white man haven't "actively" taken part in toxic male behaviour/privilege, all white men have benefitted from it. You have benefitted from the subjugation of women, you have benefitted from legally being the only game in town, you have benefitted by looking the part and blending in, you have benefitted.

I give my husband such shit sometimes because he will take up space in a conversation on a topic he has scant knowledge in or that he only knows about because of me and I give him this are you fucking kidding me look. I have to tell him that he can't just talk with authority on topics he has wrong or is guessing on. He's a tall white man with good hair. People implicitly trust that, nevermind if he has no clue what he is saying.

theres no way to address.....accusations like that on ilx

and to not acknowledge they have been stated is to be guilty of the orwellian overtalking

i believe yerac that her husband is shit

Haha, he's pretty awesome. He just has to be told some things to make him aware sometimes.

Like, he's never had to think about these things in his life ever. He's always had it pretty easy.

mordy maybe goes too far

but i can only

jesus can i

imagine posting

"I give my husband such shit sometimes because he will take up space in a conversation on a topic he has scant knowledge in or that he only knows about because of me and I give him this are you fucking kidding me look. I have to tell him that he can't just talk with authority on topics he has wrong or is guessing on"

about my wife here

just for "the lolz"

the reaction would not be an earnest nod nor a consideration that there are surely contexts where this may be true or whatever

not an attack yerac but

well obviously not all men are like that

see, rush?

I am punching up though. There is a difference. Plus, so many older ilxors here know him and they know me. I would read this to him and he would giggle because it's behaviour he's been trying to be better about.

ahhhhh

do we

do we need a non-punching up thread and does that mean we also need two such if we need the posited US/non-US threads

every thread is non-punching up thread

He's also an astronomer and we've had conversations where I tell him he needs to start considering the representation in meetings he attends, the people that take up space in calls. And if he has a female grad/postgrad student that doesn't contribute/engage vocally, it's up to him to assist in moderating those conversations. It's not that women sometimes have nothing to say, it's because there is literally no space where a man isn't talking/speaking over/interrupting to say it.

this one time this guy punched me and first i was upset bc my face hurt but he explained he was punching up and so i was cool w/ it

every thread is non-punching up thread

― Finnegans woke (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 8 March 2018 16:01 (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sure sure 364 days are swm day its cool its cool

xp

idk there's been some bunk posted about a final solution to the white man problem itt or w/e but we could maybe do Yerac the courtesy of interpreting her uppunching as wellmeant loving corrective to confident blabbermouth? i mean it's a dynamic i know well myself from my own domestics and one i've come to respect

obv i do actually know everything but

Open season on imago. (Isn't it always though?)

go ahead lj who was stopping you@

i won't judge yerac's relationship and i'm sure her husband has no problem w/ what she said but ime in my marriage even things my wife knows are flaws she has and that she's working on - if i were ever to comment on them, even in private and only to her, i would do so delicately bc humans have fragile egos. and i def wouldn't talk about it with other people. in general i think this is a good rule for relationships but as always ymmv.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with correcting people on facts. Like, I know my spouse didn't suddenly become a rococo furniture expert so why is he suddenly giving bad chair advice? And he's in a position where he could be more inclusive in a field that has had some public sexual harassment issues.

Yeah, we are not that delicate about such things. He's my partner, he's not a child.

"i mean it's a dynamic i know well myself from my own domestics and one i've come to respect"

i totally read this as you respecting your servants...

LOL

lol

i was like wow lj has a butler?

I often critique my farmhands on the proper way to do a champagne service.

and a cow-creamer

Yeah, we are not that delicate about such things. He's my partner, he's not a child.

many ppl who are adults aren't thrilled about ppl discussing their failings with strangers just fyi i'm not sure if you're aware

The private is political in action.

I am putting this in the same category as him playing the guitar terribly or him telling someone how to incorrectly bake bread when he's never done it before. I am not telling the world he has some tragic body odor (made up example).

hey mordy you're being a dickhead

He's being the typical dude.

i don't really feel like getting into a fight on ilx

being a socially successful, sexually charismatic male is the greatest feeling in our collective imaginary (or genes?), as such a person enjoys the greatest freedom.

"Imaginary" is right as I reckon only a vanishingly small percentage of males feel like this on anything resembling a regular basis. Like I get that just because something is nigh-on unattainable doesn't mean ppl stop yearning for it (cf self-made man myth and all that) but I don't think this is something to get too fatalistic over

xpost No, it's cool. I am using him as an example because we've had many discussions and many examples where I LOVINGLY but seriously call him on "mansplaining" or talking over me. And I am fascinated by what compels white men to do this. Like, it's so subconscious sometimes that it's like they're sleepwalking through the actions of doing it.

"just fyi i'm not sure if you're aware"

yeah, um, this is that thing by the way. that people do. if you aren't aware...