Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

If "mass culture generally" isn't sufficiently specific, remember the "men's movement" of circa 1990?

wtf i was 14 and lived on a fucking farm believe me no one around me had ever heard of that

Bourdieu: 'male privilege is also a trap'.

Okay, UMS, I hear you and will tone it down.

That said, as far as I can tell, men have dominated almost every conversation, about almost everything, almost forever.

So discussion along the lines of "but what about the MEN?" or "how little ppl care to understand men" is eye-rolly to me.

I am surprised intersectionality hasn't come up on this thread at all. I think it would clear up a lot of that white male feeling of "but I had all these hardships too." And above I was about to say similar. Toxic maleness and white male privilege rewards men but men are also a victim of it. Both of these things can be true.

xp you're posturing for an audience that has no need for it and on the basis of what would seem to be a sophomoric understanding of the topic at hand

I don't disagree, but currently the intersectional discourse is just as often used as a cudgel, eg "you're playing life on easy mode and failing" etc. xp

So this is what people are doing today

100% in favor of an intersectional discourse that builds understanding and solidarity, for sure. xp

xxp

ya, i made reference to it in passing, but we're very far from having that type of public discourse

Yeah, I couldn't really read the entirety of this thread but In orbit said some very good things. You have to keep it in mind that no one is downplaying your personal hardships (whether you are a male that is a poc or lower class or have had your own abuse from men) all of this should be considered and has been. I am a woman that grew up working class in an immigrant/military family. I would never even think that I could compare myself to what black women go through in this country. It doesn't even compare.

So this is what people are doing today

― valorous wokelord (silby), Wednesday, March 7, 2018 12:58 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i lol'd

YMP your thoughts are usually better than this

The line of argument you're talking itt since is cheap as shit

ok

shutting up now

It's OK YMP

The problem with men is that we can't genocide them, can't take their votes away

So what should we do? Men (white men esp) (and non-white/non-men who buy into white male bullshit) continue to exist and continue to pollute and resist

I don't believe that "wokeness" is the answer, as it has shown itself (to me) to be just another power game, men learning the language in order to game the system

I think what needs to be contemplated/written about is not yet another profile about a Nazi group in the NYT

But rather an examination of the psychological effects (on a majority) of a progressive movement that does not benefit the majority

And subsequently a set of constructive tools that allow and assist the majority to accept this adjustment or that in order to empower the minority

There are examples I can think of where methods have been put in place that actively take power away from white men-- skewing college acceptance systems to favour women and non-whites, for example-- where I am certain there are detractors, but not in the left or centre and prob not much of the right anymore. i.e. yay, the implementation of this policy seems to be working, even as young white men have to accept their fourth or fifth choice in order to get their post-grad education

But I have progressive American friends who resisted Obamacare because it didn't directly benefit them. I have progressive American friends who argue for gun control and claim they'd never own a gun themselves but then say inanities like it'd be a different story "if I lived in New Orleans or Detroit".

I really, really want some psychological articles, psychological analysis on how a person can Let Things Go effectively, age out of relevance gracefully, find their politics become obsolete (and accept it), and so on

It's not just white men, either; the fight this past year has been about white women who aren't intersectional enough in their feminism, or are being TERF-y... my own personal kryptonite is when a nbpoc is at a party and starts spouting anti-black rhetoric to me, presumably because they want to exercise some edgy discourse with somebody (me, white) who is in no position to question them on it

idk

obv I know these documents exist within radical discourse and I've read them, but I think a mainstreaming of those how-to's would be pretty useful right now. Sorry for long types. My awareness of Jordan Peterson and his popularity is new to me and I'm feeling completely freaked out by it

I mean

Books about men forfeiting power clutter the lit syllabus (Berryman, Roth, Coetzee)

The closest thing I saw re: this was The Square, which I might have read wrong, but was meant to satirize a woke man's loss of power, but then was shown at the end to still have his house and his children and that stupid car so even when he's lost everything the movie is still not presented as a tragedy

The problem with men is that we can't genocide them, can't take their votes away

is anyone buying this horseshit?

marcos at 3:40 7 Mar 18

i don't understand this conversation

ooh i know this one! *buzzes in* nonbinary person of color?

non-black person of colour

Really the only important thing I typed was this:

"I think what needs to be contemplated/written about is not yet another profile about a Nazi group in the NYT

But rather an examination of the psychological effects (on a majority) of a progressive movement that does not benefit the majority

And subsequently a set of constructive tools that allow and assist the majority to accept this adjustment or that in order to empower the minority"

Thank you.

The weirdest radical idpol thing I've personally encountered was at a commie event I attended recently, where I spoke to a woman my age (early 30s) who got earnestly offended when a comrade who'd greeted her had made the assumption she could read. (She considered this assumption ableist.) I worry about how popular that sort of perception is, where you just go around assuming bad faith on virtually everyone's part.

anyway fgti otm

xp. christ almighty

I worry about how popular that sort of perception is, where you just go around assuming bad faith on virtually everyone's part.

― Simon H., Wednesday, 7 March 2018 22:15 (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Shouldn't you worry about how prevalent this behaviour is tbh

I don't follow.

So what should we do?

Neurochemical therapy

Sometimes I might be in environments where not everyone is literate, so it’s def something to keep in mind and be ready to provide other resources quickly and smoothly so ppl don’t feel bad and don’t miss opportunities. But it’s very situational. In my non work life I probably wouldn’t be looking for it as much.

But that’s neither here nor there, really. Basically fgti otm.

Yeah, one thing I learned while working with kids is to never assume they have the internet or a tv or an adult at home to help.

Not sure worrying about the 'psychological effects' of collateral damage as we stride further towards absolute wokeness is quite enough tbh, especially in the US. Without a modicum of economic justice, this can only breed more resentment.

Id also think sometimes we shouldn't these threads into US/non-US so the normal world wouldn't get caught up spluttering at the nonsense hyperbole (which is actually applicable to the US like)

What % of masculinity is toxic tho

― things you looked shockingly old when you wore (darraghmac)

Oh, I don't know, Dmac. Say, 40%?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUPY-YByK8

That sounds about right tbh

Shut up and listen is not effective rhetoric no matter who you’re trying to convince of what.

― Mordy

i find this advice works very well with _tago mago_

But I have progressive American friends who resisted Obamacare because it didn't directly benefit them. I have progressive American friends who argue for gun control and claim they'd never own a gun themselves but then say inanities like it'd be a different story "if I lived in New Orleans or Detroit".

....sounds like you don't have progressive american friends?

if the question is how do we improve THE DIALOGUE

we don't

any commitment to the DIALOGUE whether it comes through the popular shithole... jordan peterson? is that his name? it doesn't matter, there is no person who can "center the dialogue" because the conditions for "dialogue" are not met. and that is why people keep telling men to shut the fuck up.

My two cents: white dudes can benefit greatly from spending as much time as possible with people who aren't other white dudes and particularly spending as much time as possible in situations where white dudes are the minority.

oh right this was the thread

lol the male primates vs. female primates example discussed upthread came up in the jordan peterson speech i just saw on youtube. you wont believe what side he took

on a more serious note, when people talk about white men letting loose their grip on power i don't really feel like it actually...connects to the way the world works. It's treating a systemic issue, once again, as an individual behavior issue. and we have a system that specifically rewards individual behaviors. if all the woke dudes start giving up their power it leaves the worlds biggest assholes in power, rather than the ones more liable to i.e. hire female employees. of course, entrusting the system to solve these problems is also wrong...but we also all have to pay rent? idk, i feel like people haven't really thought about what letting go of power really means

another way to look at it is with Trump, who actually gets what white people are correctly afraid of: many of them would lose jobs if a truly equitable society were to take shape. I know privileged ppl who have jobs in which they coast, as the children of wealthy or powerful ppl, making 80k to moderate unimportant organization message boards or whatever. We can tell poor white ppl "no you don't understand trump doesn't have your interests at heart" and we're right bc Obamacare would help them but we're wrong in the sense that they know the truth: white privilege is a real benefit to them, even as its also destroying them, and that there actually *aren't* enough jobs to go around, and they are worried theyll lose those jobs....which is true! id argue many of them probably deserve to, of course. But this applies to many ppl whose lives began from places of greater opportunity, and why would they give it up? to 'do the right thing'? Because they want to be a 'good person'? We have a system that doesnt incentivize these behaviors, so instead we just look down on ppl for acting rationally

dont mean to otherize my own whiteness in the above paragraph but for clarity's sake i elected to refer to the group of 'white ppl' in toto without confusing parantheticals

Everyone in toto was white iirc

Actually, fuck, Greg Phillinganes tours with the current line-up, talk about erasure on my part.

Wikipedia in fact shows that several non-white musicians have been in toto. So much for my hilarious wisecrack.

We can tell poor white ppl "no you don't understand trump doesn't have your interests at heart" and we're right bc Obamacare would help them but we're wrong in the sense that they know the truth: white privilege is a real benefit to them, even as its also destroying them, and that there actually *aren't* enough jobs to go around, and they are worried theyll lose those jobs...which is true!

white men benefit from structural inequality at the expense of marginalized groups but in a lot of cases that benefit = just about being able to keep their head above water and pay bills, rent etc and asking them to give up their privileges in that situation is different than e.g. rich successful guys (who will remain pretty rich and successful whatever happens) stepping aside to allow women to direct more big budget Hollywood movies or take high profile media jobs, but when people talking about 'giving up power' these things all get lumped together? which doesn't mean that the inequality should just be accepted, but convincing people who are already in relatively precarious situations to give up what advantages they do have is a difficult task?

I guess this is where people are coming from with the argument that it's only socialism that can defeat gender and racial inequality, if society functions in such way that there's a safety net and no-one is allowed to fall below a certain level then ppl in privileged groups would be more likely to be willing to give up power, because they wouldn't be risking destitution? (idk maybe this is naive, and the whites/men would still never be willing to give up there privileges even if they are guaranteed a decent standard of living, most Trump voters weren't on the breadline, lots white men who are rich and successful by any definition are still resentful and unwilling to give anything up? I guess some of it is also how you define 'a decent standard of living' that you try to convince white men they would retain even if they give up power, you've got not being able to keep a roof over your head at one end and less chance of winning best director oscar at the other end, but a lot of stuff in between where people disagree about what is tolerable?)

i don't think men need to subtract themselves. partly bc it's uselessly vague and lots of men don't have any sort of privilege they can abnegate (what have any of you given up?), but more importantly, improving your understanding of how gender functions in society and how you relate to it is a positive, constructive exercise which you benefit from

I think that getting men/whites to agree to willingly give up power only has a chance of succeeding if you can convince them that they will still have a tolerable life after they give up power (even if the morally correct thing to do would be to give up that power anyway) but 'tolerable life' is about self-image and self respect as well financial/material concerns, white men 'giving up power' in the sense that fgti describes and 'improving your understanding of how gender functions in society and how you relate to it' means accepting this view of the world and of their own white male identity:

The problem with men is that we can't genocide them, can't take their votes away

So what should we do? Men (white men esp) (and non-white/non-men who buy into white male bullshit) continue to exist and continue to pollute and resist

or at least accepting the above is what it takes to meet the consensus online social justice consensus of 'understanding gender and your identity'. I can't say that fgti's view here of whiteness and maleness is incorrect, but is it possible to be a white man and accept all that and live a tolerable life, to not be filled with self-loathing and despair? is it possible to be a white male who doesn't pollute?

you can try to improve yourself but you can't transcend your whiteness and maleness, and this worldview sees maleness and whiteness as inherently toxic (again it's difficult to argue that it isn't toxic, but if you accept this I don't see how you as a white male take pride or pleasure in anything you do or any aspect of your existence without 'buying into white male bullshit' or to some extent preserving your own position in the system to an extent?) crux of this worldview is that you can never really be a 'good' white man and I think this true but also I don't think you will ever get a significant % of white men to accept this, or to white men who do accept this are inevitably fatalistic, withdrawn types who have given up on life

(imo there is some extent to which this is oddly similar to the bedsit loser alt-right/4chan worldview, the impossibility of a 'good' white man is a common feature)

those hyperbolic italics are not necessary to accept or even think about in order to improve things

i think positive discussion of gender/maleness is important but i don't think ilx could manage it

agree

that’s the spirit

for real though, you need the sort of conversations that can only happen in supportive situations in which ppl like each other and that is not ilx