Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

xpost
yeah but we can't mostly

i think it's fairly well established that men generally have less intimate relationship with people than women do - a lot of men typically only really being intimate and open with their partners, some not even - and therefore are less likely to be communicating their inner life in a meaningful way to those close to them. it's probably one of the reasons why young men kill themselves more than anyone else. it's quite different from saying that men do not have the opportunity to put their thoughts and feelings out their in literature, art, journalism etc. which is of course not true

also a lot of men's problems with not being able to express their feelings is the discomfort of their male close friends and family with this type of sharing

so it's not like it's something being imposed from outside of the male realm

The vast majority of men aren't writers or artists of any stripe, though, so there's no incentive to be self-reflective, nor are they necessarily raised to work those muscles. (I'll leave it to someone else to pick at the examples you cited.) And there's a big difference between having books in your house and being raised to express your misgivings, fears, awkwardnesses, whatever. xxxxxp's dear god this thread moves fast

Okay but I live right now in a house with thousands of books by and about dudes, and hundreds of records and movies by and about dudes. If men have trouble expressing themselves it's not for lack of opportunity.

The idea that the solution for the current situation is MORE WORDS FROM DUDES ABOUT HOW TO BE A DUDE seems ludicrous to me. But carry on.

what exactly is the situation that needs a solution iyo? all the evils in the world?

sorry forgot to use scare quotes. '''''situation'''''

like, "current situation" implies a break from the continuity of history

Xxxp

Ya i think you’re missing the point

I’m at lunch tho so I can’t break it all down right now in detail

But basically the language of putting words to specific feelings and recognizing how to do this is not something a literary fiction book can teach you

Believe it or not self helps books are v good at this, but there is a stigma to reading them

I think this is why david foster wallace read a lot of self help books tbh

if anything it makes it all the more clear how little ppl care to understand men
Yes, these mysterious creatures called "men," hardly anyone cares about trying to understand them.

Maybe we need to send reporters out to Rust Belt diners to listen more to the esoteric inchoate concerns of these people. From whom we have heard so little. Their hopes, their fears, their dreams, their aspirations.

A completely unexplored area of mystery. The elusive male soul - what does it want?

Seems like we have heard so little about these creatures and how they tick for the last I dunno four thousand years.

― tater totalitarian (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, March 7, 2018 7:04 PM (fifty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xoxoxoxoxo

sleepingbag, the "situation" under discussion - and the prescription for it - has to do with what fgti says here:

For the past couple months, ever since it became apparent that People Are Listening To Jordan Peterson And Giving Him Money, I've been talking about and hoping to find either an individual, a collective of individuals, or a collection of texts that centre men, and give them the tools and language to forfeit power gracefully, to accept criticism and adopt malleable attitudes toward their outlook, to cultivate a productive response to being called out (instead of immediate defensiveness), and to change their language and patterns and operative methods in ways that benefit not-male people

fgti is a thoughtful and smart human so I take this worry seriously.

As noted, I'm incredulous (to put it mildly) about any solutions based on "more men talking about what it is to be a man."

so your solution to the patriarchy is just mass self-abnegation from men.

having records and books doesn't mean someone knows how to express themselves

what are you so mad about?

xp YMP i've watched some peterson videos, he seems to harp on personal responsibility v often, which i understand is anathema to the left.

'forfeit power gracefully' : what does this mean? forfeit what to who + why? and when deciding whether or not to do this, do i get to factor in the oppression i've faced in my own life?

roll yourself up

what is the exact hierarchy of oppression, just so i know how much power to forfeit to who

YMP i've watched some peterson videos, he seems to harp on personal responsibility v often, which i understand is anathema to the left.

He's a transphobe and a misogynist just fyi

xpost
who wants to answer this sincere, honest question definitely not made in bad faith?

yes it's a real question that is actual

david foster wallace read a lot of self help books tbh

and how did that work out for him

if fp'd sleepingbag so many times, to no avail ;_;

david foster wallace read a lot of self help books tbh

and how did that work out for him

― am0n, Wednesday, March 7, 2018 12:21 PM (twenty seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

low blow

ha sic I hadn't even looked at the cartoon pic, obv

sleepingbag, if you're shook by the oppression you've faced i feel bad for you son. you should talk through it though, this is a pretty decent place to let loose.

david foster wallace read a lot of self help books tbh

and how did that work out for him

― am0n, Wednesday, March 7, 2018 2:21 PM (nineteen seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

damn wtf

"How it worked out" is that he was able to write a lot of cool shit.

my kid's close friend's dad who took his own life last year was a pretty good example of a guy who i think just never talked about his issues with anyone. i think he talked w/his wife about them, but far too late. his social scene was full of vv alpha type L.A. men and i suspect but don't know for sure that he didn't feel like they'd listen. i don't know that it's true, but i don't think anyone noticed he was in pain. what i didn't know til later was he considered me a friend, whereas i thought he was vv low key and quiet and wasn't very social. i wish i'd known, i tend to be a guy who tries to help out as best i can. it broke my damn heart.

point of fact, wallace like so many other regular people who have nothing to do w/writing or anything else, worried about side effects and that the drug was affecting his work, tragically went off the medication that kept his depression at bay.

Personally? I'm not mad. I am, however, baffled that people are baffled. We've discussed all this. It's all been out there for public consumption and deliberation, pretty much forever. If "mass culture generally" isn't sufficiently specific, remember the "men's movement" of circa 1990?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men

No one is stopping you from saying how you feel except you. If the keys to your mind-forg'd manacles are truly within your grasp, what the hell is preventing you from using them?

No one is stopping you from saying how you feel except you.

If you really think this is an accurate representation of the social dynamics young men are immersed in then there's nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.

No one is stopping you from saying how you feel except you. If the keys to your mind-forg'd manacles are truly within your grasp, what the hell is preventing you from using them?

― tater totalitarian (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, March 7, 2018 2:33 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my upbringing, socialization, natural inclinations

i think you're being very callous and rude and i don't appreciate it. how's that for a start?

i don't understand this conversation

If "mass culture generally" isn't sufficiently specific, remember the "men's movement" of circa 1990?

wtf i was 14 and lived on a fucking farm believe me no one around me had ever heard of that

Bourdieu: 'male privilege is also a trap'.

Okay, UMS, I hear you and will tone it down.

That said, as far as I can tell, men have dominated almost every conversation, about almost everything, almost forever.

So discussion along the lines of "but what about the MEN?" or "how little ppl care to understand men" is eye-rolly to me.

I am surprised intersectionality hasn't come up on this thread at all. I think it would clear up a lot of that white male feeling of "but I had all these hardships too." And above I was about to say similar. Toxic maleness and white male privilege rewards men but men are also a victim of it. Both of these things can be true.

xp you're posturing for an audience that has no need for it and on the basis of what would seem to be a sophomoric understanding of the topic at hand

I don't disagree, but currently the intersectional discourse is just as often used as a cudgel, eg "you're playing life on easy mode and failing" etc. xp

So this is what people are doing today

100% in favor of an intersectional discourse that builds understanding and solidarity, for sure. xp

xxp

ya, i made reference to it in passing, but we're very far from having that type of public discourse

Yeah, I couldn't really read the entirety of this thread but In orbit said some very good things. You have to keep it in mind that no one is downplaying your personal hardships (whether you are a male that is a poc or lower class or have had your own abuse from men) all of this should be considered and has been. I am a woman that grew up working class in an immigrant/military family. I would never even think that I could compare myself to what black women go through in this country. It doesn't even compare.

So this is what people are doing today

― valorous wokelord (silby), Wednesday, March 7, 2018 12:58 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i lol'd

YMP your thoughts are usually better than this

The line of argument you're talking itt since is cheap as shit

ok

shutting up now

It's OK YMP

The problem with men is that we can't genocide them, can't take their votes away

So what should we do? Men (white men esp) (and non-white/non-men who buy into white male bullshit) continue to exist and continue to pollute and resist

I don't believe that "wokeness" is the answer, as it has shown itself (to me) to be just another power game, men learning the language in order to game the system

I think what needs to be contemplated/written about is not yet another profile about a Nazi group in the NYT

But rather an examination of the psychological effects (on a majority) of a progressive movement that does not benefit the majority

And subsequently a set of constructive tools that allow and assist the majority to accept this adjustment or that in order to empower the minority

There are examples I can think of where methods have been put in place that actively take power away from white men-- skewing college acceptance systems to favour women and non-whites, for example-- where I am certain there are detractors, but not in the left or centre and prob not much of the right anymore. i.e. yay, the implementation of this policy seems to be working, even as young white men have to accept their fourth or fifth choice in order to get their post-grad education

But I have progressive American friends who resisted Obamacare because it didn't directly benefit them. I have progressive American friends who argue for gun control and claim they'd never own a gun themselves but then say inanities like it'd be a different story "if I lived in New Orleans or Detroit".

I really, really want some psychological articles, psychological analysis on how a person can Let Things Go effectively, age out of relevance gracefully, find their politics become obsolete (and accept it), and so on

It's not just white men, either; the fight this past year has been about white women who aren't intersectional enough in their feminism, or are being TERF-y... my own personal kryptonite is when a nbpoc is at a party and starts spouting anti-black rhetoric to me, presumably because they want to exercise some edgy discourse with somebody (me, white) who is in no position to question them on it

idk

obv I know these documents exist within radical discourse and I've read them, but I think a mainstreaming of those how-to's would be pretty useful right now. Sorry for long types. My awareness of Jordan Peterson and his popularity is new to me and I'm feeling completely freaked out by it

I mean

Books about men forfeiting power clutter the lit syllabus (Berryman, Roth, Coetzee)

The closest thing I saw re: this was The Square, which I might have read wrong, but was meant to satirize a woke man's loss of power, but then was shown at the end to still have his house and his children and that stupid car so even when he's lost everything the movie is still not presented as a tragedy

The problem with men is that we can't genocide them, can't take their votes away

is anyone buying this horseshit?

marcos at 3:40 7 Mar 18

i don't understand this conversation