Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

what i like most about the kevin love thing is the effort to make it relatable. i think that even when ppl do make the effort to communicate/educate they can fall into the trap of assuming others know or understand more than they do, what's "obvious" to them.

personally the extent to which I am less of a prick than I was earlier in life is, I think, mostly owed to some early, close proximity to some bad male behavior that messed with my life, resulting in my subsequently mostly distrusting / not relying on other men. not really a replicable set of circumstances for most people I wouldn't think. I do hope that the increased circulation of stories of sexual abuse and impropriety is causing a small shift in consciousness.

the Kevin Love thing is good. in general encouraging young men to be more, not less, forthcoming about their problems, is A Good Thing imo. I was definitely not raised to do that.

Personally, the thing that made me a feminist was shutting up and listening...

― Frederik B, Wednesday, March 7, 2018 2:19 PM (fourteen minutes ago)

v hard to imagine tbph

The fact that I don't listen to your bullshit isn't really applicable all over.

i'm saying i don't need non-men telling me how i should act

Hey sleepingbag, try that same formula only with "non-whites" and see how well it works. I'll wait.

And I'm not even remotely play-acting when I compare this to other issues in the ilx rhetorical space.

Routinely, on politics threads, we keep going round this point: it's not worth trying to "understand" Trumpers/Teahadis/Nazis. No reason to meet them where they are and try to bring them back to the fold. They're a lost cause; it's better to mobilize dormant constituencies on the left.

In a fun twist, it's some of the SAME people who are advocating sawing off the gangrenous limb of Trumpoids, while at the same time saying we need to coax toxic men back to civilization gently. Case in point:

...you can be damn sure that Wolff's slipups will be madly spun on fox - beetblort - dextrosphere.

― oklahomie don't play that (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, February 26, 2018 1:40 PM (one week ago)

Not much you can do about the chuds.

― Simon H., Monday, February 26, 2018 1:44 PM (one week ago)

yes there is, you don't have to give them free ammunition.

― flappy bird, Monday, February 26, 2018 1:46 PM (one week ago)

This line of attack was inevitable as soon as Wolff got involved. And it's not like the likes of fuckin Breitbart need to wait around for legitimate grievances to fire those shots.

― Simon H., Monday, February 26, 2018 1:56 PM (one week ago)

So my conclusion from this is that many on the left are willing to write off conservative white guys as a lost cause rather than pandering to them and trying to understand them as a means to motivating them. But toxic men in general? Well, there, we need to be more careful. Can't risk alienating them with BOOGA BOOGA EXTREME RHETORIC.

ime:

adult men bro out in very private or at least when in a very close knit circle of friends

a lot of them never build this type of relationship, so they end up building it with a long-term gf or wife -- at least the good ones do

the bad ones just never learn to communicate their feelings and are literally stunted by their own overwhelming emotions that they don't know how to articulate them

also there is a kind of "secret language" that men use with other men which is symbolic, non-direct, when expressing closeness or compassion but they do not dwell on it too long

but of course this could all be tainted by my own forefathers (maybe class and profession have something to do with it), so it's hard to pinpoint the numerous causes without having an earnest conversation

we're still a long way from having an earnest conversation though, because men generally don't think it's important to tell personal stories of turmoil or at least they don't tell them til the end of their lives when their memory is hazy, but even then, those types of stories are far and few between

also men act differently towards their daughters, mostly because their daughters (i'm thinking of my own step sisters here) start the uncomfortable conversations first and father feels pressured to continue with it

w/r/t sport, i can only talk in terms of hockey, but with the whole mental illness awareness that was going on in recent years, players were trying to open up, but that wasn't very successful

I think we can all agree men are ill-served by the patriarchal stereotypes of men our culture generally traffics

These stereotypes are always changing though, and cultural standards/expectations along with them. And they change not only with time but also location. Sometimes in these discussions I feel like people are envisioning John Wayne or whatever.

I think there's a difference between conservatives who hold shitty views in daily life vs people who are paid to spew bilious junk on TV. xxp

F# A#, I grew up in a house with four and a half feet of bookshelf space occupied by John Updike books. Plus almost every record by the Beatles, the Beach Boys, Simon & Garfunkel, and James Taylor.

Excuse me if I roll my eyes at "men can't communicate about their feelings" type talk.

See class/profession comment

shut up n listen works when its two-way

xpost
yeah but we can't mostly

i think it's fairly well established that men generally have less intimate relationship with people than women do - a lot of men typically only really being intimate and open with their partners, some not even - and therefore are less likely to be communicating their inner life in a meaningful way to those close to them. it's probably one of the reasons why young men kill themselves more than anyone else. it's quite different from saying that men do not have the opportunity to put their thoughts and feelings out their in literature, art, journalism etc. which is of course not true

also a lot of men's problems with not being able to express their feelings is the discomfort of their male close friends and family with this type of sharing

so it's not like it's something being imposed from outside of the male realm

The vast majority of men aren't writers or artists of any stripe, though, so there's no incentive to be self-reflective, nor are they necessarily raised to work those muscles. (I'll leave it to someone else to pick at the examples you cited.) And there's a big difference between having books in your house and being raised to express your misgivings, fears, awkwardnesses, whatever. xxxxxp's dear god this thread moves fast

Okay but I live right now in a house with thousands of books by and about dudes, and hundreds of records and movies by and about dudes. If men have trouble expressing themselves it's not for lack of opportunity.

The idea that the solution for the current situation is MORE WORDS FROM DUDES ABOUT HOW TO BE A DUDE seems ludicrous to me. But carry on.

what exactly is the situation that needs a solution iyo? all the evils in the world?

sorry forgot to use scare quotes. '''''situation'''''

like, "current situation" implies a break from the continuity of history

Xxxp

Ya i think you’re missing the point

I’m at lunch tho so I can’t break it all down right now in detail

But basically the language of putting words to specific feelings and recognizing how to do this is not something a literary fiction book can teach you

Believe it or not self helps books are v good at this, but there is a stigma to reading them

I think this is why david foster wallace read a lot of self help books tbh

if anything it makes it all the more clear how little ppl care to understand men
Yes, these mysterious creatures called "men," hardly anyone cares about trying to understand them.

Maybe we need to send reporters out to Rust Belt diners to listen more to the esoteric inchoate concerns of these people. From whom we have heard so little. Their hopes, their fears, their dreams, their aspirations.

A completely unexplored area of mystery. The elusive male soul - what does it want?

Seems like we have heard so little about these creatures and how they tick for the last I dunno four thousand years.

― tater totalitarian (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, March 7, 2018 7:04 PM (fifty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xoxoxoxoxo

sleepingbag, the "situation" under discussion - and the prescription for it - has to do with what fgti says here:

For the past couple months, ever since it became apparent that People Are Listening To Jordan Peterson And Giving Him Money, I've been talking about and hoping to find either an individual, a collective of individuals, or a collection of texts that centre men, and give them the tools and language to forfeit power gracefully, to accept criticism and adopt malleable attitudes toward their outlook, to cultivate a productive response to being called out (instead of immediate defensiveness), and to change their language and patterns and operative methods in ways that benefit not-male people

fgti is a thoughtful and smart human so I take this worry seriously.

As noted, I'm incredulous (to put it mildly) about any solutions based on "more men talking about what it is to be a man."

so your solution to the patriarchy is just mass self-abnegation from men.

having records and books doesn't mean someone knows how to express themselves

what are you so mad about?

xp YMP i've watched some peterson videos, he seems to harp on personal responsibility v often, which i understand is anathema to the left.

'forfeit power gracefully' : what does this mean? forfeit what to who + why? and when deciding whether or not to do this, do i get to factor in the oppression i've faced in my own life?

roll yourself up

what is the exact hierarchy of oppression, just so i know how much power to forfeit to who

YMP i've watched some peterson videos, he seems to harp on personal responsibility v often, which i understand is anathema to the left.

He's a transphobe and a misogynist just fyi

xpost
who wants to answer this sincere, honest question definitely not made in bad faith?

yes it's a real question that is actual

david foster wallace read a lot of self help books tbh

and how did that work out for him

if fp'd sleepingbag so many times, to no avail ;_;

david foster wallace read a lot of self help books tbh

and how did that work out for him

― am0n, Wednesday, March 7, 2018 12:21 PM (twenty seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

low blow

ha sic I hadn't even looked at the cartoon pic, obv

sleepingbag, if you're shook by the oppression you've faced i feel bad for you son. you should talk through it though, this is a pretty decent place to let loose.

david foster wallace read a lot of self help books tbh

and how did that work out for him

― am0n, Wednesday, March 7, 2018 2:21 PM (nineteen seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

damn wtf

"How it worked out" is that he was able to write a lot of cool shit.

my kid's close friend's dad who took his own life last year was a pretty good example of a guy who i think just never talked about his issues with anyone. i think he talked w/his wife about them, but far too late. his social scene was full of vv alpha type L.A. men and i suspect but don't know for sure that he didn't feel like they'd listen. i don't know that it's true, but i don't think anyone noticed he was in pain. what i didn't know til later was he considered me a friend, whereas i thought he was vv low key and quiet and wasn't very social. i wish i'd known, i tend to be a guy who tries to help out as best i can. it broke my damn heart.

point of fact, wallace like so many other regular people who have nothing to do w/writing or anything else, worried about side effects and that the drug was affecting his work, tragically went off the medication that kept his depression at bay.

Personally? I'm not mad. I am, however, baffled that people are baffled. We've discussed all this. It's all been out there for public consumption and deliberation, pretty much forever. If "mass culture generally" isn't sufficiently specific, remember the "men's movement" of circa 1990?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men

No one is stopping you from saying how you feel except you. If the keys to your mind-forg'd manacles are truly within your grasp, what the hell is preventing you from using them?

No one is stopping you from saying how you feel except you.

If you really think this is an accurate representation of the social dynamics young men are immersed in then there's nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.

No one is stopping you from saying how you feel except you. If the keys to your mind-forg'd manacles are truly within your grasp, what the hell is preventing you from using them?

― tater totalitarian (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, March 7, 2018 2:33 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my upbringing, socialization, natural inclinations

i think you're being very callous and rude and i don't appreciate it. how's that for a start?

i don't understand this conversation

If "mass culture generally" isn't sufficiently specific, remember the "men's movement" of circa 1990?

wtf i was 14 and lived on a fucking farm believe me no one around me had ever heard of that

Bourdieu: 'male privilege is also a trap'.

Okay, UMS, I hear you and will tone it down.

That said, as far as I can tell, men have dominated almost every conversation, about almost everything, almost forever.

So discussion along the lines of "but what about the MEN?" or "how little ppl care to understand men" is eye-rolly to me.

I am surprised intersectionality hasn't come up on this thread at all. I think it would clear up a lot of that white male feeling of "but I had all these hardships too." And above I was about to say similar. Toxic maleness and white male privilege rewards men but men are also a victim of it. Both of these things can be true.

xp you're posturing for an audience that has no need for it and on the basis of what would seem to be a sophomoric understanding of the topic at hand