The Lysergic Acid Diethylamidiotic Joe Biden & Sarah Palin VP Presidential Debate thread in the 2 zero zero 8 (2008 party over oops)

and also yeah this is just a sideshow - no matter what happens it isn't gonna move polls/votes very far either way

if the debate turns out like couric interview itll hurt mccain

Biden doesn't need to, it will just make him look aggressive. The press will do his work for him.

I'm leaning towards this opinion. The press is running hard with the "you've got to be fucking KIDDING me" narrative re: Palin. I think Biden should debate McCain in absentia rather than engage much with her.

without those followup questions it's not as easy to see clearly the extent to which she avoids the subject

I dunno about this, actually: one of the secret treats of Palin is that even people who know nothing about the issues -- and have no framework for judging whether she's right or wrong or batshit crazy about something -- nevertheless know perfectly well the tone and mannerisms of someone who has no idea what she's doing; everyone's used the metaphor of a middle-schooler doing a book report but he hasn't read the freaking book, and it's true, there are times when you can just hear this in Palin's voice and see it in her eyes, and nobody likes that. So sure, if she's prepped well enough to sound convinced and authoritative about anything she says, maybe she'll be fine -- but if she starts bluffing again, it seems like people can tell that whether or not they're even evaluating the content of what she's saying.

Also yes, this is a total Palin-evaluating show, Biden just needs to sit back politely and say "this is our stance on this issue" and "I'm very glad for the opportunity to talk with Governor Palin" and not attempt any extemporaneous zingers WHATSOEVER. Just stand there and look competent and state the obvious.

lol why don't Democrats like to take people out?

biden should zing away because i love zings and he is one of our preeminent political practitioners of the art

from a strategic standpoint he should pick his zing spots so as not seem like a total jerk but not totally abandon zings as a palin flub followed by a sweet biden zing would play well on the tv indeed

Final votes:

Biden should zing 12
Biden should ignore Palin 11
Biden should lick his paws 9

Lock thread, plz

ew, ban 9 ppl

I think re: the zings he should be a total gent and let her zing first...and then be all 'here's one I made earlier...when you were in eigth grade.', emphasising that age and experience is a-okay when not accompanied by anger management issue plus nostalgia for both a lost war and a reflexive, hankering prestalgia for all Viagra-substitute violence to come.

Argh, typos...internet connection teeteringly precarious...

I'm leaning towards this opinion. The press is running hard with the "you've got to be fucking KIDDING me" narrative re: Palin. I think Biden should debate McCain in absentia rather than engage much with her.

^^ i'm inclined to agree with this but still a little concerned that the debate format is going to allow her to ramble nonsensically but oh so neighborly and directly to her base, without Couric there to cattle prod her back to the question at hand.

of course, if you are someone who's ok with this woman being the next-in-line leader of the free world, i suppose there's not much she could do to shake that kind of misplaced confidence

http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/palin-ohv-trash-300x199.jpg

and then be all 'here's one I made earlier...when you were in eigth grade.'

Yeah no. Biden coming off like a petty McCain-esque crank isn't going to cut the mustard -- hell, McCain managed to play the "lol old I mean experienced" card w/ more elan than that in the first debate (when he wasn't whining about Obama's supposed ignorance and inexperience).

wtf "without Katie Couric to prod her" like Gwen Ifill is some slouch who doesn't know how to moderate, she moderates discussions every fucking day doesn't she?? i know Palin makes Couric look like Murrow but come on, there is a reason we have a moderator

if he totally ignores her, he'll look condescending and rude, though.

omg just like mean old mr. mccain was to obama

There's a difference between moderating a debate and conducting an interview. Gwen is under no obligation to point out fallacies, lies or inconsistencies in Palin's statements; that's Biden's job.

Biden's already said he won't patronize Palin like 'John did to Barack'. His timbre of voice doesn't lend itself to pettiness, so I think Dave's overreacting to that bit whilst overlooking the rest of the post because whatever else, Biden hasn't got any sense of entitlement and tends to come off as self-deprecating in his humour.

absolutely -- but ifill's well within her role to reiterate the question if it isn't answered (the way Lehrer did, but hopefully being less of an asshole about it)

xpost

wtf "without Katie Couric to prod her" like Gwen Ifill is some slouch who doesn't know how to moderate, she moderates discussions every fucking day doesn't she??

wasn't meant to dis Gwen (or celebrate Couric's interrogative prowess), rather that Palin could feasibly "get away" with more with open-ended answers as opposed to point blank questions that often require yes or no answers.

wait Lehrer was an asshole?

i really hope they "free palin" for this debate and she comes out all sassy sarcastic mom, dodging questions and fumbling policy questions but coming back with a zinger, then all the big-haired ladies in churchland will cluck and titter and wish that sarah palin could be their pal so they could all go to chili's for cadillac margaritas together, she's a firecracker that one, yup yup

Lehrer did just fine. You just need a stooge to ask questions, keep the contestants from rambling, and avoid Charlie Gibsonisms.

lehrer came across as a bit exasperated / nonplussed when neither offered a precise answer to what the bailout would cause them to cut from their spending plans

My saying "Biden shouldn't attempt extemporaneous zings" was not based on tactics, it was based on the notion that the only way Biden is going to fail here is if he says something extremely stupid that everyone spends all week analyzing, which is kinda his wont, therefore perhaps he should avoid flying off into any of the areas where he has the potential to say such things, of which "extemp zinging" is a significant territory

xpost - yeah, Elmo, his reaction seemed incredibly odd to me: did he really think there was ANY way he was going to get a candidate to sell out a policy proposal in a national debate? "Remember that thing where I said we needed to invest in our children's education? We could lose that one, my heart wasn't really in it."

nabisco -- i understand the concern about having biden shoot his mouth off, but i think it's pretty certain that more attention will be paid to palin in the debate spin aftermath. like it or not, this is kinda her show as she is still a (relatively) unknown quantity, so everyone's going to be watching for how she does, whereas biden already has a long reputation for saying dumb things -- it's totally expected of him, and often just passed over

McCain/Palin can lose the election on Thursday, but they can't win it.

the best-case scenario in my mind is biden restraining himself, answering questions genially and calmly, and letting palin zing away without having anything substantive to say

You realize that this scenario is actually a win for Palin, right?

― i am the small cat (HI DERE), Wednesday, October 1, 2008 10:49 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i want this to happen cause i think it feeds two stories that are advantageous to the obama campaign--1) the mccain campaign is rude, impetuous and totally lacking substance and 2) biden is a valuable steady-hand asset to the obama campaign, which is the opposite of the hasty and impulsive mccain campaign...

so far in this election ive seen little to no indication that voters are, post-convention, responding to palin's ignorance or the campaigns general attack direction the way they did with bush (whether thats because shes even dumber than he was, or because the "national mood" is no longer in favor of the uninformed, or because shes a woman, is a issue for another thread). stoic, calm steadiness has been working very well for obama's campaign so far, and the mccain campaign cant figure out what it is or what its doing except that it hates obama (and apparently the truth)

biden is a valuable steady-hand asset to the obama campaign, which is the opposite of the hasty and impulsive mccain campaign...

Um, Obama is the valuable steady-hand asset to the Obama campaign. Biden is the loose cannon!

im not saying that as a statement of fact, im saying its an advantageous story for the media to seize on

have you heard Biden's gaffes in the last couple of weeks? As nabisco said, it's expected of Biden.

i want the next days headlines to be "biden shows why he is an asset to the campagin" and "palin fast with zings but wheres the substance" instead of "biden and palin zing each other all over the place" which even if palin "loses" comes off like a draw

That would be a very odd story for the media to seize on considering to date it's been "lol Biden is crazy but ain't got NUTHIN' on Palin, wau"

xp, ha

take out "steady-hand" then its not really important to my point

biden's in a shitty position -- if he confronts her, they will try to spin him as being rude, condescending, etc. if he doesn't engage her at all, then the spin will be that this tough-talking powerhouse of a dem was rendered toothless by lil ol' sarah, everywoman

I hadn't heard about the Couric interview until after the Pres debate. I was watching CNN and the aftershow kept going on and on about how bad it was, how it was a disaster, etc. You would have thought she fell out of her chair or started screaming or something. And then I looked it up and yes, it was shitty, but I don't think nearly as bad as the media made it out to be. I still think she's out of her league but I don't think she's a walking timebomb, and that midwestern accent is charming and that is all most Americans are going to take away from any interview with her. She's going to have to mess up much more severely to do any damage.

and no, there will be no "draw," way to hedge your bets you guys

You don't think it's that bad? I think it's horrifying. (xpost)

its weird to me that you guys are so eager to see biden unleashed when the obama debate strategy of being calm and collected paid off well in the first debate... why is this one so different?

palin will either 'win' (regardless of substance) for exceeding expectations or she will choke on her own twisted tongue and that will be that

because biden is not obama and palin is not mccain, max

and i don't necessarily want to see BIDEN UNLEASHED but he has to be himself to some extent, otherwise he's on the defensive and just reacting to palin, letting her dictate the tone and direction of the discussion

besides, joe biden speaking in public without throwing in a few clever digs at his opponent is like a day without sunshine, it's how he play

biden already has a long reputation for saying dumb things

I think this reputation is limited to the media and folks who pay attention to people like Joe Biden, not undecided voters, who may well recognize Biden's name but not know his foot-in-mouth habits well enough to find them funny or charming. It is a totally different thing is he says something problematic during a VP debate and has chatter about his gaffe overwhelm chatter about how Palin does not entirely know what she's doing/saying. So yeah, I think Biden should worry less about "beating" her and more about prodding her to beat herself (sorry, these terms sound suddenly inappropriate) -- i.e., questioning her, engaging her, making her think on her feet and fall on her own.

Re: the Couric thing, I have anecdotal evidence of multiple people who were EXCITED about Palin and, despite not having major issues-based disagreement with anything she said in that interview, came away thinking "hold on, she just says random words while she's trying to think up an answer!" -- when this sense is palpable, it's palpable to everyone regardless of politics

no dude, gwen ifill is dictating the tone and direction of the discussion, and biden just has to come across as smart and engaging and substantive

i get that we all want to be entertained, but for serious, chilligotthis.jpg

well, that's assuming that ifill even moderates the debate

It's not that the right's critique isn't utterly transparent, but media backlash was one of the principal dynamics in motivating the Palin bounce in the first place.

But there's another factor here too. In preparing for a debate, you are often preparing nearly as much for the "judge" or moderator as for the opponent. Both campaigns probably have a pretty good idea of what types of questions she is likely to ask, how he is likely to ask them. Palin and Biden have undoubtedly watched videotapes of Ifill moderating the 2004 debate between John Edwards and Dick Cheney.

By changing the moderator, you're throwing everyone a curveball, and catering to the candidate who is better able to adapt on the fly. Which, most likely, is not going to be Sarah Palin.