is New York City dead?

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I don't go out much anymore, so maybe there's some lively cheap shit I'm missing out on.

It's also really hard for some people in late middle age (w/out a LUCRATIVE CAREER) to live here.

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 6 February 2018 22:30 (two years ago) link

I'm also old and have a family and work a lot, and I just don't really know what's happening anymore. When we went out in Bushwick, we saw some local DJs/electronic artists in a little club and it was absurdly packed and seemed pretty alive.

Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 6 February 2018 22:31 (two years ago) link

I guess another thing I've noticed is that galleries tend to show artists from all over the US and world, and I'm guessing that's more true than it used to be. But that's also an internet-erasing-borders thing.

Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 6 February 2018 22:33 (two years ago) link

All cities are dead because culture travels faster through the Internet than it ever could geographically.

― treeship 2, Tuesday, February 6, 2018 3:28 PM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is pretty otm

sleepingbag, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 22:43 (two years ago) link

it's all about the rust belt, my friend

we eat the cheeses here too

they are artisanal

our cities are the envy of all, their livability is primo

j., Tuesday, 6 February 2018 22:48 (two years ago) link

Here's how I think about New York, after my last visit there last summer:

New York is good and the only actual large city in America on the metric of everything existing there. Big cities are the ones where there is everything; you can tell Seattle is a small city because there are things that are not here.

New York is bad in that it smells of garbage. In the summer, hot garbage.

If more American cities grow to populations in the millions, New York will be more dead by comparison due declining uniqueness. Is this going to happen? Who knows.

direct to consumer online mattress brand (silby), Tuesday, 6 February 2018 22:52 (two years ago) link

i kinda want to leave, but i have a job i like okay and an unusually fortuitous living situation. there's no real reason for me to be here; i don't partake of the cultural opportunities available

it'll probably be the subway that finally drives me away

mookieproof, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 22:57 (two years ago) link

NYC: where if you can make it there as a successful artist, you can also have a successful time crowdfunding your medical bills.

Yerac, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:21 (two years ago) link

Telecommuting will finish it off.

omar little, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:23 (two years ago) link

Less of a joke, not as dead as San Francisco?

Feels like people have been waiting for a rust belt/flyover city to take over since our traditional metropolises are more 'playground for the rich' than ever but I still don't hear kids looking to move to Columbus or Pittsburgh.

louise ck (milo z), Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:27 (two years ago) link

Have the media decided where the New Portland is?

louise ck (milo z), Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:29 (two years ago) link

There was a Tooze tweet recently, where he showed stats on how professional actors in the USA, vastly outnumber coal miners. I forgot by much, but it was significantly much.

calzino, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:30 (two years ago) link

I do hear murmurings about ppl aspiring to move to Pittsburgh, Detroit, Denver, a few others

trife's rich padgett (rip van wanko), Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:31 (two years ago) link

According to @BLS_gov and @TheEconomist there are 51,200 people employed as coal miners in the US v. 785k in 1920. In 2017 there are more florists, actors and personal fitness instructors than miners. pic.twitter.com/m913tHokI2

— Adam Tooze (@adam_tooze) January 2, 2018



I was misquoting it slightly

calzino, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:33 (two years ago) link

Less of a joke, not as dead as San Francisco?

Feels like people have been waiting for a rust belt/flyover city to take over since our traditional metropolises are more 'playground for the rich' than ever but I still don't hear kids looking to move to Columbus or Pittsburgh.

― louise ck (milo z), Tuesday, February 6, 2018 6:27 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I hear rumblings about Pittsburgh now and then. Also tons of my friends moved to Philly over the years and it did seem to be producing bands at a good clip for a while.

Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:35 (two years ago) link

And no one talks about how many administrative assistant, secretarial and receptionist jobs were lost in NYC due to automation, because... women, a lot of woc. Breadwinners for their families. Fuck coal miners and their sooty tears.

Yerac, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:37 (two years ago) link

I’m moving back to new york soon bc of my job but it’s not a nice place to live.

treeship 2, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:39 (two years ago) link

I still have my apartment in Astoria. But I really don't want to go back. I dread having to deal with the subway.

Yerac, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:41 (two years ago) link

The subway is inexcusably unpleasant

treeship 2, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:44 (two years ago) link

i get more anxious/aggro in nyc in my old age. i don't know what it is. impatient. people bug me more. i think its just a case of the olds. i will always love the city though. in general. i've loved hanging out there my whole life.

it really is me being set in my ways. we stayed in brooklyn one summer with the kids and i seriously didn't want to leave the hotel room. get on a subway to go to a museum in manhattan? kill me now.

scott seward, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:45 (two years ago) link

Everything here is comically more stressful than any other place.

treeship 2, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:45 (two years ago) link

I car commute to the suburbs now and it's glorious to not be taking the subway anymore

Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:45 (two years ago) link

Why is the ceiling always dripping down there?

treeship 2, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:47 (two years ago) link

Second and third tier cities could attract people by just showing how messed up the MTA is in their promo material.

I haven't lived in nyc full time for almost two years now. I miss it, but I really don't miss it. Just the thought of having to take the subway to work gives me anxiety.

Yerac, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:48 (two years ago) link

Part of me really regrets accepting another job here. As a teen my dream was living here but it’s not that fun.

treeship 2, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:49 (two years ago) link

NYC misses Yerac and Znarf

ian, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:52 (two years ago) link

Fix the subway and get rid of GOP madness and I am there!

Yerac, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:55 (two years ago) link

fuck the subway, i drive most places now. and when i do take the subway it's in the middle of the day.
sorry can't do anything about the GOP.

ian, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:57 (two years ago) link

Do you have to go in and out of manhattan a lot or no?

treeship 2, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 23:59 (two years ago) link

I remember taking the subway maybe 1-2 times a month when I worked in Williamsburg. It was the best. My tweety truck got sold like 3 years ago.

Yerac, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:00 (two years ago) link

i've honestly not experienced the subway horrors that many have, but i will say that the subway is nearly unusable on nights and weekends

hoooyaaargh it's me satan (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:01 (two years ago) link

just not enough trains

hoooyaaargh it's me satan (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:01 (two years ago) link

I want to get myself to love it again.

treeship 2, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:03 (two years ago) link

Not the subway—the city

treeship 2, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:03 (two years ago) link

The last job I had there, I almost had a breakdown every time I took the subway. I would sometimes using the plodding R so I wouldn't have to deal with the insaneness of the 4,5,6 during rush hour. That train really has the worst people to be stuck with in the tunnel.

Yerac, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:03 (two years ago) link

I do drive into the city regularly. Many mornings I drive in and drop my wife off at work and then drive home. It helps that we live near the Manhattan Bridge and her office is in chinatown. We also might drive in and park for any number of special events.

ian, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:06 (two years ago) link

I had the same commute. Bushwick to East Harlem. L to union square than the green line. Sometimes I found myself wishing I would just spontaneously die.

treeship 2, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:06 (two years ago) link

Interesting, ian. I don’t have too much experience driving in manhattan but when I’ve done it I didn’t have a good time.

treeship 2, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:07 (two years ago) link

Last time I tried to take the L train during rush hour I almost had a panic attack trying to change from the G at Metropolitan; just a slow moving mass of people slowly slithering thru the tunnel. Really grim.

ian, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:08 (two years ago) link

I used to drive in the city all the time. It's fine. It was parking that was the issue.

Yerac, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:10 (two years ago) link

I miss DUMPLINGS! and pizza. And things not being closed on Sunday, Monday, half of Wed. or for whatever random holiday/break pops up.

Yerac, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:11 (two years ago) link

driving from Queens to Manhattan is not terrible, although sometimes you wind up having to park in a garage that costs more than whatever you're actually going to the city for.

Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:14 (two years ago) link

Agreed that the real issue with driving into the city is the parking. Ive gotten used to cruising the grid to find street parking; even if it's metered it's way better than paying a garage imo.

ian, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:16 (two years ago) link

I commuted into the city every weekday for work from roughly March 2000-May 2016. Since May 2016, I've been into NYC maybe 20 times - roughly once a month, on average - and I don't miss it at all.

grawlix (unperson), Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:25 (two years ago) link

Uptown is really nice and feels weirdly timeless, both the east and west sides.

treeship 2, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:32 (two years ago) link

new york is obv dead bc we are now just talking about the subway

subway complaints otm though it really is awful

marcos, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:34 (two years ago) link

I’m planning to move to east williamsburg soon — with friends — but maybe that isn’t my scene.

treeship 2, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:34 (two years ago) link

tbh i've never lived in ny, just visited a ton over the 15 years i lived on the east coast. i love visiting. there is a manic creative energy there, i enjoy being around all different kinds of people, and last time i visited (a month ago) it really struck me how globally, ethnically, socioeconomically diverse it STILL is

claims of a rust belt migration are overblown, though i do meet a fair share of folks who moved back to cleveland like i did after spending time in more expensive cities. there is a cool art scene in cleveland, there is stuff happening. but come on as cool and livable as rust belt cities are (and i do genuinely love them) they are provincial compared to a place like new york

marcos, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:37 (two years ago) link

i've been in NYC for eighteen years now and got through 9/11 and sandy evicting me and the 2003 blackout and am now old and fat and running into people I haven't seen in a decade on the way to the dentist
i would likely be a great deal less patient with city life if i had to still be doing daily subway commuting but I've been freelance for about five years and while that comes with its own hassles, i recommend it.
i would say one of the three major reasons i wanted to come here was because i hate cars and car culture and this was one of the few places you could get by without wheels... in the uber economy, this may be less true now?
NYC has ridic good live music and theater and film and art and general performance and lectures every single night of the week and the food is great
you can do all the above for a lot of money or for free/nearly free with a fair amount of due diligence
the rent remains too damn high but i remain amazed that the melting pot is still melting: every ethnicity/gender/class/creed is slammed together and we mostly all get along cheek by jowl without fucking killing each other somehow and that's a small miracle
there are days when i hate everybody and everything here but they're rarer than the days when I'm utterly floored by what the city has to offer.
i <3 ny

Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:39 (two years ago) link

also treeship comment about the internet is partially right to some extent those more clearly defined scenes are happening more online than geographically. everywhere has scenes though

marcos, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 00:40 (two years ago) link

I get where the “go back to iowa” sentiment came
from but tbh our per-year exports are not nearly enough to really twist the demographics

I can only think of three or four people
in brooklyn who came from this state in my general (30 - 45) range

maybe every iowa city grad goes there idk

babu frik fan account (mh), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 02:34 (three weeks ago) link

I lived in the East Village from ‘98 to ‘04, near Tompkins Square Park. I can sympathize with this guy because I’m getting old too and these damn kids with their damn packages for every damn thing and their loud voices in the hallway are annoying as heck. OTOH in more reflective moments I would have to admit that the only constant is change and the bohos who move into dodgy neighborhoods will always and forever be the leading wedge of gentrification. You might as well complain about the weather.

o. nate, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 14:28 (three weeks ago) link

speaking of new york city and death, i need to make a will. anyone have a lawyer to recommend?

mookieproof, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 15:21 (three weeks ago) link

the least believable part of this essay is the idea that whomever he lives near named madison is a guy

It's Bumgarner presumably

Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 15:25 (three weeks ago) link

You might as well complain about the weather.

yeah, u guys don't get it

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 15:27 (three weeks ago) link

I guess one thing I do wonder (and I mean wonder -- as a 40 yo dad in central queens, I'm pretty disconnected from this) -- is whether there is any single neighborhood in NYC today that feels like *the vibrant cutting edge* locus of the arts? Has there been a place like that since Bushwick peaked? Because I have a theory that geography plus COL has made that hard, as it's become more difficult to have any kind of centralized area and instead people with less money who are in the arts get spread out in many different directions.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 15:34 (three weeks ago) link

i know multiple people with studio space in the industrial part of maspeth. get on the maspeth train while you can. thats a metaphorical train cause theres no actual train that goes there

adam, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 15:39 (three weeks ago) link

yeah i feel like you need commercially zoned dead space for an artistic bohemian area to really work i.e. hackney wick, early williamsburg, etc

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 15:43 (three weeks ago) link

the spread-out thing sounds right to me. people lucking into decent rentals in lefferts gardens and ridgewood, workin on stuff in maspeth and in sunset park, promising to come by each other's studios, having to reschedule, settling on coffee the third thursday of next month, someplace in manhattan where their trains come together.

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 15:44 (three weeks ago) link

please stay the fuck away from windsor terrace; we got a good thing going here

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 15:48 (three weeks ago) link

Still parts of East Williamsburg green point and Bushwick that are zoned industrial and have light industry mixed with start ups and offices. My old building at Morgan and division is still filled with artists and “artisanal” craftspeople types. Ridgewood obv but now “arts” people are edging into Glendale and maspeth. I haven’t done like Bushwick open studios in a few years but with the nightlife at least it still feels pretty vibrant. There’s always plenty of stuff going on and shitty places to live even if it sucks. And I don’t know about the East village. Sure it’s been shit for years but go further downtown and you have Commend and Two Bridges or whatever.

dan selzer, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 16:59 (three weeks ago) link

I miss windsor terrace/Kensington very much…there was this amazing apartment I visited around there that amounted to a museum of sequential art…

veronica moser, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 17:21 (three weeks ago) link

see now you got me curious

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 17:25 (three weeks ago) link

who is this genius curator i wonder

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 17:25 (three weeks ago) link

mookie, I've used this guy for three things (including wills). He was free through my company so I don't know what his rates are like. But he is very accessible in chelsea, super quick responding to emails (you can do almost everything through phone calls and email), and was generally really easy to work with/pleasant. I am likely using him again this year.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lawrence-hanover-58937722/

Yerac, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 17:58 (three weeks ago) link

the other thing about the village is nyu owns most of it and the parts nyu doesn’t own, nyu kids may disproportionately live, so the complaints largely seem like complaints about college kids more than anything else

(except when they become digressions about stalking and stealthily photographing and imagining murdering and violating them, which, I’m sorry, is fucking creepy)

like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 18:08 (three weeks ago) link

tbf, entitled college kids are a blight upon the village. not so much they should be stalked/murdered but still.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 18:09 (three weeks ago) link

entitled college kids are a blight upon the village earth

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 18:20 (three weeks ago) link

nyu owning most of the village is a very bad thing but i guess we can't undo that

american bradass (BradNelson), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 18:25 (three weeks ago) link

not without seizing it anyway

Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 18:29 (three weeks ago) link

^ this makes me wish the olsen twins still made movies.

Yerac, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 18:38 (three weeks ago) link

thanks yerac!

mookieproof, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 19:29 (three weeks ago) link

yeah i feel like you need commercially zoned dead space for an artistic bohemian area to really work i.e. hackney wick, early williamsburg, etc

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand),

im hoarding empty warehouses in Patterson, NJ tell your friends!

(•̪●) (carne asada), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 20:17 (three weeks ago) link

i hear detroit is still hiring

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 20:24 (three weeks ago) link

I feel like I do hear little snatches of things through my wife's artist friends and various other random people I know and it's mostly like there's no one place anymore "I hear artists are moving to [Woodhaven, Jamaica, Brownsville, East New York, Maspeth, Glendale, Mill Basin, a tiny unnamed island off the southern coast of Long Island, a barge in the Hudson river, etc.]

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 29 January 2020 23:47 (three weeks ago) link

are there 'cool neighborhoods' anywhere in america? is there some place where it's more fun to be a 20 y/o artist than the gentrifying edges of brooklyn at the moment? I feel like some combination of 'the internet' + all dense urban areas getting expensive/safer/'normal' in past decades has made this idea a bit archaic.

iatee, Thursday, 30 January 2020 00:18 (three weeks ago) link

Young people are moving to the woods

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Thursday, 30 January 2020 00:47 (three weeks ago) link

not exactly what Thoreau had in mind

I wanna publish memes and rage against machimes (rip van wanko), Thursday, 30 January 2020 01:06 (three weeks ago) link

Thoreau was a piece of shit so

Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 30 January 2020 01:13 (three weeks ago) link

uh oh dint know Thoreau was cancelled

NYU owned a lot less of the EV when I was there, eg nothing on Ave B which was a hellscape.

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 30 January 2020 01:43 (three weeks ago) link

Love any excuse to foist this essay on ppl https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/pond-scum

Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 30 January 2020 01:44 (three weeks ago) link

Livingston Manor is the new Williamsburg.

dan selzer, Thursday, 30 January 2020 02:45 (three weeks ago) link

As my stepdad would say , “Livingstink Manure”

calstars, Thursday, 30 January 2020 12:33 (three weeks ago) link

Rockaways seem pretty low key

calstars, Thursday, 30 January 2020 12:34 (three weeks ago) link

until you get targeted for fare evasion cssny.org/news/entry/mta-false-fare-evasion-narrative-data

like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Thursday, 30 January 2020 13:55 (three weeks ago) link


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