how to make friends and influence ppl (without being a creep)

I think ppl are in general more forgiving than the more socially anxious among us fear. everyone I know has said something awkward/inappropriate/rude/offensive at some point and it doesn't change how much I like them or w/e. ppl are quieter about and less confident in their judgements offline, & most will cut ppl who seem awkward some slack (& sometimes ppl exploit that & sometimes you can't tell &c. &c.)

'creepy' is the new 'hipster'

Last few posts starting from LL on all otm and get thread back on track imo

compliments are weird for me, from men or women. i find them kind of stressful. my inner Australian just wants to shut it down. it was years of being in an American office before i stopped doing this:

“your hair looks nice”
“ha! god i need a haircut so bad”

“cute shoes”
“what? these shitkickers? lol”

I like when I'm wearing a cool shirt and people tell me it's a cool shirt

although it'd be nice if they started a fresh pot of coffee instead of complimenting my shirt while finishing off the current pot

truth bomb

how about make conversation that is not a compliment? the need for compliments is actually quite low when it comes to regular everyday workplace conversation.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, January 9, 2018 3:30 PM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this times a million, thread should've been locked after this (if not way before). worst thread i've read in years (and that's saying something). it's getting really embarrassing to read the oblique "hey its not flirting but can we not compliment a woman who is working, what's a guy to do, where's the guuuuuuide" takes anbd persistence itt.

i mean, what is there to say? it's all been said already in this thread, about this subject. i don't get why the mice keep running this treadmill. unless it's because they've got their answers, but... won't leave alone what is really inexcusable behaviour.

what is the point of this thread, at this point? where do people want it to go?

I find it difficult to square the argument that this is all very straightforward and anyone who claims to be confused is just disingenuously looking to excuse bad behavior with the argument that there can never be clear rules about what is an isn't acceptable because it's all very complex and subjective, don't these contradict each other?

it's extremely straightforward: unless you have a personal rapport with a coworker, don't comment on their physical appearance in any way. and if you do, keep it professional.

^^ which is what several women have already expressed, repeatedly, in this thread. and yet it still drags on...

xp I agree with that, but the conversation itt seemed to be broader than "should you comment on a co-worker's appearance y/n", if it was just that then yes we probably could have sorted it by now (but still, y'know, who gets to define what a "rapport" is, who gets to define what is and isn't professional? that seems pretty circular)

"don't comment on a co-worker's appearance, at all" seems a-ok a rule to live by, but "unless you have a personal rapport with a coworker, don't comment on their physical appearance in any way. and if you do, keep it professional" is basically "it's inappropriate except in situations where it's appropriate" which isn't much help?

Performing your resolution of this stuff such that whatever outlook you have personally found to be the gospel truth has to be completely and repeatedly vindicated and vocally supported by all at the risk of a bout of evermore ridiculous ilx shaming is the worst trend

It's bad.

Perhaps it just spun off too forced and aggro from the Weinstein thread, ie. got off on the wrong foot, even though it's worth of discussion on its own. I know the thread title changed but my bookmarks seem not to care and make it about Sanpaku every single time thread's updated. Doesn't help.

But I don't see a broader conversation at all any more. I just see people - men - rehashing their 'but' over everything that's being said. Stuff like this: "who gets to define what a "rapport" is, who gets to define what is and isn't professional? that seems pretty circular". Or this: ""don't comment on a co-worker's appearance, at all" seems a-ok a rule to live by, but"

Who gets to define what a rapport is? Who came up with the word trees for trees? What is time? Seems pretty circular to me... "But" indeed. As long as people keep talking and not listening, everything is circular in the end, rendering it all meaningless. Good luck with that newfound wisdom. The women on this thread have said so many true, real things that keep getting buried under "but", "yes but what about" shit.

*removes bookmark*

if you're comfortable asking about their kids, whether they mowed the lawn this weekend, etc. then you might be cool with a compliment. if you don't partake in small talk, you have no rapport. and that stuff is part of defining how much of the non-work world you're comfortable with sharing, and how much you're comfortable hearing about. it's not circular, it's a process, and it's nuanced -- if you can't distinguish between someone who cares about your response and someone who's just being polite, then you need to examine that

and by keep it professional, I mean -- if it's the middle of a meeting and you're not partaking in small talk, don't transition from talking about sales quotas to "whoa cool tie you're wearing"

"don't comment on a co-worker's appearance, at all" seems a-ok a rule to live by, but"

just to be clear, what I meant by this is that erring on the side of caution and taking a policy of never talking about a co-worker's appearance 100% of the time is a good idea imo, it's what I do myself, it's what I would recommend others do if they asked me. But if someone starts outlining the situations in which it *is* ok, it seems fair to say if you think that their outlines are actually indistinct, especially if they are insisting it's all v straightforward and you're lying or not listening if you claim otherwise?

I think one of the main problems with the "whoa how can I understand the rules if everything is so vague" argument is that it plays to the idea that a rigid structure of rules is possible. Even if it were, no set of rules is all-encompassing. It's all about context, interpretation, and the ability to communicate freely. If you really think this is all circular, welcome to the world! Communication isn't something you arrive at, it's an ongoing process and ever-changing.

If you don't want to keep track of what kind of communication is appropriate, and don't want to cooperate with other humans to figured it out, then give yourself a more stringent set of boundaries

tbh the reason i am participating in this thread is because i was shocked to find my out-of-context hair anecdote being discussed in the weinstein thread as some sort of example of oversensitivity and it pissed me off

all the buts in the world aren't going to give you permission to shower anyone with unwanted attention
just stop it and the problem is solved; accept that you may make people uncomfortable if you continue to show them unwanted attention

which is what several women have already expressed, repeatedly, in this thread. and yet it still drags on...

LOL welcome to being a woman every day, LBI :/ This is why we are fed up with the emotional work. "Help us out here!" *offers help* "no, you arent listening, help us OUT here dammit"

Urgh.

Can't remember ever feeling it so clearly and on the nose - you just being ignored and having the same thing come up like groundhog day - on here before like on this thread, yeah :-/

It's almost like the men who make excuses about why catcalling random women on the street is acceptable.

Will this board ever again (if it ever did) change one person's mind about anything or will it be an unending story of ppl- on every side of every issue- deciding any given thread only exists for them to impart their perfect wisdom to idiots and subsequently frustratedly describe any discussion that does not follow whatever narrative was prior anointed in advance as these idiots not. getting. it.

I don't believe this thread was ever an advice thread fwiw. Or at least not just that, perhaps. Certainly not at the expense of discussion. I don't believe that anyone signed up to dutifully receive a set curriculum from a set few sources of defined and agreed authority, as if there is the right answer out there to mark against.

speaking of dissent, disagreement, diversion as if it is a case of naughty children veering from a lecture that anyone here was asked to come in and give is a bizarre impulse imo.

And tbh it is also a misrepresentation of this thread to label it as a single discussion with one outcome of one strong trend of agreement. You could focus on any one of ten different viewpoints given, some more strongly generally agreed with and some less so. Choosing to set out a stall of opposition against whichever best suits your agenda as if it were a consensus or representative of the entire thread is just strawman stuff.

If there's a 'thread opinion' it seems to be 'dont flirt at work. Don't comment on personal appearance of you have no relationship that has established it's ok that you do this'.

If a few ppl are either objecting or delving further into boundaries here then imo that's valid to do so without them becoming facsimiles for every overstepped boundary that can be recalled and recounted.

Thread 100000000

Booming

Yes. And humbling, as a deems does. I for one shan't be in the way of any discussion (except any opinion tryna move the 'don't flirt at work' goalposts obv).

Dude yesterday you said that the mildly contrarian opinions expressed in this thread made you want human civilization to end

Yesterday you were treeship #1 and wanted to bruteforce an ilx-quit and failed miserably and here you are again, "dude".

Still stand by my desire for the end of human civilization (it's easy if we try), but I'm perfectly ok with saying (and meaning) Deems has a valid point. Which takes nothing away from what I've expressed on here earlier, rather - hopefully - opens the way to a better conversation, instead of perpetually hitting the same wall.

Why would you hope for the end of civilization? Ya no thanks to that nihilist racket

And I say that as someone who likes your posts LBI

tbh without the rule of law things may be even worse

Wasn't entirely serious, Ross, though a chunk of it every now and then, yes (I don't like it either). I just hope this conversation can move forward, finally. Being called upon yesterdays posts is a game I don't like playing. What I said earlier doesn't even contradict what I said tonight, as treezy will have ye believe, but I do appreciate Deems' sincere effort to push things forward, and support that. 'Cause there's no other way than that, forward. (for civilization also tbh)

cheers!!

Catherine Deneuve is Sanpaku

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/09/catherine-deneuve-men-should-be-free-hit-on-women-harvey-weinstein-scandal

“As women we do not recognise ourselves in this feminism, which beyond denouncing the abuse of power takes on a hatred of men and of sexuality.”

They insisted that women were “sufficiently aware that the sexual urge is by its nature wild and aggressive. But we are also clear-eyed enough not to confuse an awkward attempt to pick someone up with a sexual attack.”

from another AFP article:

Some women who were strong enough to demand equal pay, it claimed, would "not be traumatised forever by a fondler on the metro", even if it is a crime, preferring to see it as a "non-event".

c’mon we’re all learning day by day and I don’t think knocking S down is going to fix anything

yeah sorry it's unfair to Sanpaku, Deneuve is a truly horrible person.

Really, I was just wondering aloud whether we really wanted a world were everyone was like me. Not bothering with social engagement IRL because a wide variety of reasons, but including the risk of embarassment or inadvertently offending others. We see a further of countries further along this path than the U.S. Everyone around me is a total stranger
Everyone avoids me like a psyched lone-ranger Everyone.

fuck it.. a further of a few

I don't think this is a necessary end for society. I wouldn't be surprised if it might require some acceptance of embarassing self-revelations in everyday life, some which verge into flirtation.

all engagement with others is a cycle of embarrassment and small offenses, but the point is you learn how to err in small ways and react. life without any failure is complete inaction imo

This is right on point <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/examples-of-toxic-femininity-in-the-workplace";>

"Lisa comes in for an interview. All the interviewers judge her objectively, based on her qualifications and the candor of her responses. This leaves her so confused that, on the way out of the office, she accidentally walks into traffic and dies."

Arg it's too early. https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/examples-of-toxic-femininity-in-the-workplace

Love the idea this board was ever about changing the minds of ppl. If anything it was so we could pass away the boring hours (when we were not being harassed by having to do work) by dumping any grey matter in our brains on unsuspecting strangers.

#workIsWork

Jessica begins speaking, and no one speaks over her. She didn’t actually have an ending to her presentation prepared, because she expected to be interrupted. She is mortified.

It me - I've been in this situation a few times, more in conversation than in a presentation context. Remember thinking what a decent guy he is.

this is really good

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/opinion/aziz-ansari-metoo-sex.html

yeah I love Lindy

yeah, strong essay