Most well-known songs based around a major seven chord?

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um. i doubt that there are millions of bands using major 7th chords. most bands don't go beyond major & minor. the cocteaus used them in nearly every song they wrote.

x-post

zappi (joni), Monday, 24 October 2005 16:43 (eighteen years ago) link

(xpost) For instance, the beginning of "Battle of Who Could Care Less."

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 October 2005 16:43 (eighteen years ago) link

No, I know there aren't millions, Zappi. Forgive my hyperbole. But there's quite a few, so it seems weird to be surprised that one particular band hasn't been mentioned. Here's another band that hasn't been mentioned: The Sea and Cake.

Matthew, knowing your tastes, I think your instinct is probably correct.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 October 2005 16:45 (eighteen years ago) link

ha, this far and no ones mentioned the Cocteau Twins????

yes, "Sugar Hiccup" is Major 7th heaven!

Love - Forever Changes is loaded with them too, very prominent in "Andmoreagain", "The Red Telephone", etc. Bryan MacLean was bigtime into 7ths & 9ths, Major & minor.

Paul (scifisoul), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, I bet a lot of the 70s soft rock you like is big into major 7ths. I'm pretty wary of them but when they're right for a song, they kill.

Eppy (Eppy), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:13 (eighteen years ago) link

Not very well known but the Palace Brothers' "Gulf Shores" is built around Amaj7.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Perhaps the earliest well-known piece with major-7th chords is Erik Satie's "Trois Gymnopedies."

this is always what I think of when asked to explain what a maj-maj-7th chord is

Dominique (dleone), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Wait, what is a maj-maj-7th chord?

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:18 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, I bet a lot of the 70s soft rock you like is big into major 7ths.

Yes, "Close to You" is prob. a textbook example.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:19 (eighteen years ago) link

(Although to be honest there's probably more min-7ths in that one than maj-7ths.)

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:23 (eighteen years ago) link

Wait, what is a maj-maj-7th chord?

major triad + a major 7th added (eg, C-E-G-B)

Dominique (dleone), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:23 (eighteen years ago) link

How is that different from a plain old maj-7th chord?

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:23 (eighteen years ago) link

well, technically speaking, if you just say "maj 7", you're only referring to that 7th note in the scale, and not to the tonality of the chord (like major or minor)

Dominique (dleone), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Ah yes, good one. It has a more maj-7 feel though I think.

Eppy (Eppy), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Dominique, so would C-Eb-G-B be a min-maj-7th?

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link

yep

Dominique (dleone), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link

What about the great min-maj-7 chord, as featured in "Michelle" and loads of other songs, "Summer Rain" maybe?

(xpost)

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link

c-eflat-g-b isn't a minor seventh, a minor seventh would include b-flat. that'd be some kinda augmented chord.

the thing about major sevenths is that they're sweet chords; dominant sevenths are brassier, harder. plus, and correct me if i'm wrong, but a major seventh does refer to the major/minor tonality, because in C, a minor seventh can only contain the two flat notes that are in the minor scale, right? minor sevenths are very warm chords, and one of the things about the Beatles around the time of "Hard Day's Night" and "For Sale" is the fact that they were using them; "What You're Doing" is a good example, I think.

edd s hurt (ddduncan), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:35 (eighteen years ago) link

No one is saying C-Eb-G-B is a minor-7th, they're saying it's a minor-major-7th. I'd never heard of that terminology, but I'm ceding to the dude (Dom) who's studied music theory.

Re sweet chords: I've always thought of them as bittersweet, specifically, because they encapsulate both a major triad (C-E-G) and a minor triad (E-G-B).

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:37 (eighteen years ago) link

(x-post)

c-eflat-g-b isn't a minor seventh
right

plus, and correct me if i'm wrong, but a major seventh does refer to the major/minor tonality, because in C, a minor seventh can only contain the two flat notes that are in the minor scale, right?

it doesn't, because when notated on a chart, you'll either see:
C7 : refers to a major chord with a flatted 7th
C-7 : refers to a minor chord with a flatted 7th
Cmaj7 : refers to a maj chord with a maj 7th
C-(maj7) : refers to a minor chord with a maj 7th
C+7 : refers to an aug chord with a flatted 7th
C+(maj7) : refers to an aug chord with a maj 7th, tho at this point, you could also notate as E+(maj7) or G#+(maj7) - or E/C for that matter, if you wanted the scale to be E based instead of C based

also note, for minor scales, you should never take for granted that they are referring to any one particular kind. in jazz, usually you're talking about melodic minors (especially in be-bop and beyond charts - though it really depends on the notes of the melody, all cues about what's "correct" come from there)

Dominique (dleone), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:42 (eighteen years ago) link

jaymc otm re: bittersweet. there is a little cliche melody where you play this little half-step thingie- from the major 7th to the root - over and over, that always sounds pretty sad to me. Only examples I can think of right now are the Replacements, "Left of The Dial" and the aforementioned Dinosaur Jr. "Severed Lips." I wanna say Neil Young uses it too, "Powderfinger" maybe?

Dom, I always thought the default minor scale in jazz is Dorian.

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:49 (eighteen years ago) link

Another common way to write Cmaj7: CΔ7

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Dang, I don't think I need the 7 after the delta.

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link

(x-post)

well, dorian is actually not technically "minor" scale - it's a mode, which just happens to share the note intervals of the "natural minor" scale. I wouldn't say it was the default one though - Miles Davis used modes on a lot of his late 50s and early 60s records, but for the most part jazz players were using minor scales that contained major 6ths and 7ths (which the natural [and dorian mode] does not)

and keep in mind, one of the most common things jazz improvisers will do is to add notes that aren't technically in the scale when they improvise - hence you get a lot of "chromatic" figures, or figures that that when taken on their own (apart from the context of the entire solo), seem out of the key entirely. see john coltrane especially

Dominique (dleone), Monday, 24 October 2005 17:59 (eighteen years ago) link

ha, and that's not even right - dorian mode has a major 6th, which natural minor does not. I need to download the new service pack to my college theory memory

Dominique (dleone), Monday, 24 October 2005 18:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh I wasn't talking about soloists, just those lowly accompanists known as bass players.

(xpost)

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 24 October 2005 18:04 (eighteen years ago) link

hmm, well as a one time jazz soloist, the rule is follow me, damnit! ;)

Dominique (dleone), Monday, 24 October 2005 18:10 (eighteen years ago) link

that'd be some kinda augmented chord.
edd, I think that chord mainly appears when you have a minor chord and then a (bass)line that moves down from the root to the major seventh to the minor seventh to the sixth. Which is another pretty common trick, apparently. You'll know it when you hear it.

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 24 October 2005 18:46 (eighteen years ago) link

Let's not kid ourselves here, for 99% of the world, saying "C major 7th" means a major chord, i.e. play E natural.

Keith C (lync0), Monday, 24 October 2005 19:07 (eighteen years ago) link

No it doesn't. It means nothing to about 80% of the world and the right thing to most of the rest.

joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Monday, 24 October 2005 19:13 (eighteen years ago) link

Let's throw "I'm Not In Love" into the mix. It's a love song to the major seventh chord.

Sang Freud (jeff_s), Monday, 24 October 2005 19:32 (eighteen years ago) link

The maj7 chord sounds a bit melancholic to me. I love it actually. Weren't there a lot of maj7s in late 80's Smiths-influenced jangly indie (like The Sundays)? The one song that comes to mind right now is Morrissey's "Tony the Pony".

daavid (daavid), Monday, 24 October 2005 19:36 (eighteen years ago) link

four weeks pass...
edd, I think I just heard that minor chord thing with the descending line incl. major 7th on your favorite record, Two Yanks In England, on the track "Fifi the Flea."

k/l (Ken L), Monday, 21 November 2005 22:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Tears for Fears' "Pale Shelter," if that counts as a well-known song.

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 21 November 2005 22:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Best example I heard recently is Never Never, a Libertines B-side. It opens with a pounding Lust-for-Life style rhythm but on a major seventh chord. Very unusual as this chord's normally associated with jazzy soft ballady mush.

Dr X O'Skeleton, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 15:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Is this the chord that Neil Young always uses?

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 15:43 (eighteen years ago) link

... for instance, an F shape with an open (high) E

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 15:44 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah that's it, "Hey Hey My My", etc

Keith C (lync0), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 16:03 (eighteen years ago) link

Not 'well-known', but I can't think of an artist more obsessed with maj7 than Harold Budd.

Joe (Joe), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 16:07 (eighteen years ago) link

I thought so (xpost), in that case, LOTS of Neil Young songs plus Lou Reed: "Femme Fatale", "Candy Says" & "Coney Island Baby"

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 16:09 (eighteen years ago) link

... plus quite a few Arthur Lee/Love songs: "Andmoreagain", "You Set the Scene" et al.

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 16:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Neil uses that little D/Dmaj7/D7 run in Motion Pictures most noticeably. Mercury Rev used it on Holes and wouldn't be surprized if they got it from him seeing as they cover those On the Beach songs. REM probably got from him as well.

dan. (dan.), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 16:18 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh and Burt Bacharach - A LOT

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 16:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh well this explains why I like Neil Young so much. (I've been trying to figure it out...) There's a song called "Razor Love" from Silver and Gold where the verse just alternates between two maj-7th chords. It sort of reminde me of "If You're Feeling Sinister," in an odd way.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 17:59 (eighteen years ago) link

I adore this thread.

Hurting is OTM. What's Goin' On is the best example I've seen so far of a song that centers around a maj7 (Mercy Mercy Me as well). Reminiscin' by the Little River Band is based around Gmaj7, Steely Dan's music is littered with them. It's an open "jazzy" chord, underused in my opinion.

As for the maj/maj7/dominant progression, to "Kiss Me" and "Show me the way" I would add "It Ain't Over Til its Over" by Lenny Kravitz

Ash (ashbyman), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 18:57 (eighteen years ago) link

"for the most part jazz players were using minor scales that contained major 6ths and 7ths (which the natural [and dorian mode] does not)"

The melodic minor scale has a major 6th and 7th.

Steve Goldberg, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 20:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Interesting how the saturation of modern pop music with blues harmonies has exoticised the formerly more mundane maj7. Blues nomally uses a dominant 7 as the "home" chord, but traditionally Westerm music in a major key would come home to a Major chord. The seventh of the scale wouldn't necessarily be played, but if it were it would have been a major 7th: so the major 7 is sort of implied, even if not played.

From a jazz perspective, prior to the advent of modal jazz at least, most tunes also started and finished on a major chord (the tonic) that would naturally take a major rather than minor 7: the main exception would have been certain straightforward blues tunes. Jazz improvisors tend not to distinguish too much between tonic chords where the implied harmony is a major scale: the tonic chord might be played as a major triad, or a major 6 or major 7 chord, or a major 9 or whatever - jazz musicians tend to regard these as more or less interchangeable. The reason being that any note within the major scale can be added to the chord without changing its harmonic function within the tune(whereas adding a minor 7th to form a dominant 7 chord *would* imply a different harmonic function, in fact a change of key, although, as I said earlier, the rules for blues tunes are different).

But the use of dominant 7th chords has become so pervasive that the formerly more mundane major 7 now sounds a bit exotic to some ears, even when used as the tonic. To earlier generations it's the use of the dominant 7 as the home chord that would have sounded exotic, even jarring.

Going back to the original question my problem is with the words "based around". Most pre-rock popular music comes home to a major chord that would quite naturally take a major 7, but that probably doesn't mean the music is "based on" that chord. Some jazzy soft-rock does seem to wallow in that maj7 sound, often by alternating between a IMaj7/IVmaj7 (eg Emaj7/Amaj 7) Examples that spring to mind are "My Love" (Macca), "I Want to Make It With You" (Bread), "Your Love Is King" (Sade), "Wild Children" (Van Morrison). Marvin Gaye uses the sound a lot, as others have pointed out. You get (usually somewhat more harmonically interesting) examples of it in modal jazz - the reason why Miles was attracted to "On Green Dolphin Street" would have been that major 7 sound, very familiar to soft rock fans - he normally reharmonised the tune so that it had even more maj7 chords than the written version.

frankiemachine, Wednesday, 23 November 2005 12:15 (eighteen years ago) link

DOM 7 = TEH BLUES
MAJ 7 = TEH POP

also the5th song on loveless starts on the maj7 (the note not the chord) and in general that album has a lot of those chords! a heavily distoreted maj7 can sound shudderingly beautiful, or shitty

i am listening to 'fun house' and i dont think there is a single maj7 chord here

jdfkls, Wednesday, 23 November 2005 22:53 (eighteen years ago) link

One of the more well-known songs that I know of based around a Maj7 chord is 'Waitin' on a Friend' by the Rolling Stones, a CMaj7.

This is a very interesting thread....

Vivian, Tuesday, 6 December 2005 02:07 (eighteen years ago) link

my fave Ronettes song - "Do I Love You"

Paul (scifisoul), Saturday, 10 December 2005 01:51 (eighteen years ago) link


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