minor TV observations

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haha, the guy who sets up the tasks/challenges on Big Brother looks very like Jel! Why are Poison records not involved in the tasks, Jel?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 4 July 2003 16:13 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, I totally thought it *was* Jel for a full thirty seconds.

Cozen (Cozen), Friday, 4 July 2003 16:31 (twenty years ago) link

All the female characters on Friends fit "politically incorrect" stereotypes yet, as far as I know, it's never been bashed specifically for this. One of the women is a chef and a neat-freak (she likes to cook and clean); one of them works at Bloomingdale's (she likes to shop) and one of them is just a ditzy blonde. That's my minor TV observation.

jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 04:54 (twenty years ago) link

But the men are just as flawed - this is how comedy works, surely? The long tradition in comedy has been, in the majority of cases, for the men to be flawed and funny and the women to be capable and far less flawed and therefore not very funny. The Simpsons, great as it is, mostly falls into this trap. Positive images of women do not generally make great comedy.

I do agree that the flaws of Monica particularly are about a hundred times as likely to be ascribed to women as men, but I'd have thought Rachel's brand of shallowness is no more stereotypically female than Joey's is male, and Phoebe's ditziness doesn't seem to me to resemble the usual dizzy blonde stereotype at all.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 5 July 2003 11:57 (twenty years ago) link

but Friends has followed The Simpsons and most comedies in accentuating the flaws of the characters more and more until thats all the characters are - parodies of themselves. Monica is now married yet more neurotic/demented/nerdy than ever, Ross also became more irritating in his mannerisms and stuff. i guess the others are more or less the same but Rachel ended up being the most likeable one - her only flaw was a penchant for materialism but she admitted to this freely so it was sorta loveable in the end. I suppose I should point out that yeh I still watch Friends (hangs head) but I swear I don't enjoy it much (unlike the repeats, heh).

stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 12:04 (twenty years ago) link

I agree, Martin, I agree, political correctness isn't funny and I really liked the show for awhile (I don't watch it anymore for the reasons steve just mentioned, not because I'm a P.C. nazi.) I just think the show's use of old-fashioned female stereotypes is surprising when you think about it, and it's interesting that the writers manage to cloak the sexism of it in the idea that these are, you know, modern-day career women etc. As for your observation that the men are no better than the women ... well, then again, Ross and Chandler -- despite being nerdy and "uncool" and everything, are portrayed as being intelligent, whereas none of the female characters are, and maybe Joey's cartoonish stupidity serves to distract people from that.

I mean, Cheers was funny for a while and played on gender stereotypes and everything, but it also (at least when Diane Chambers was around) allowed the women to have a certain degree of sophistication. Again I'm really not bitching or anything, I just think it's interesting -- I mean, it took me a long time to notice how old fashioned and (potentially) offensive the stereotypes are and I'm just surprised hard-core humorless feminists haven't latched onto this to get attention for themselves, you know?

jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 13:20 (twenty years ago) link

these stereotypes only seem to exist in coventional 'safe' American comedies tho right? not the light-hearted drama shows - even in Ally Mcbeal, Judging Amy and i guess you could include Sex In The City as it has no audience which are all career-women shows which address/confront the classic stereotypes of women in society and at least play around with them if not totally redefine them.

stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 13:32 (twenty years ago) link

Oh, and you think the female characters on The Simpsons aren't flawed and funny? Again I don't watch the new ones, just the reruns, but dude ... Bart's teacher, Ms. Krabaple or however it's spelled ... and Lisa's teacher ("The children are right to laugh at you, Martin") ... and Marge's blissful cluelessness and her older sisters' hag scuzziness ... I think the female characters are a riot on that show.

jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 13:39 (twenty years ago) link

i think its different in animated series which will always be able to reflect real life in more surreal ways - messing around with the stereotypes is par for the course in The Simpsons, Family Guy, King Of The Hill, even South Park. its interesting that Futurama is considered not as popular despite the fact that its lack of an archetypal family unit for plotlines to revolve around means it remains fresher than those other shows, at least potentially.

stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 13:45 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, I think stereotypes are an important part of comedy, Steve. I don't watch the shows you mentioned (have never even seen Sex in the City believe it or not)... But, hell, I know I fit into "negative" female stereotypes in a lot of ways (more than most women I know, I sometimes think) and it seems like comedy is just a process of taking these same old stereotypes, of men and women and other subcategories of humanity, and re-shaping them somehow. I'm just saying Friends has taken old-fashioned sitcom stereotypes of women (the ditz, the materialist and the housewife) and kept them surprisingly intact. It's a minor observation, lest we forget.

jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 13:49 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not trying to insult the female Simpsons characters, but I don't think Marge is remotely as flawed or funny as Homer, for instance, and this was true of the Flanders too, and it's hard to think of half a dozen funny regularish female characters compared to several times as many funny fairly regular male. There's a second level of very funny semi-regular characters who are almost all male. It's very far from even handed. I don't particularly mean to insult the show, one of my all-time favourites, but it's symptomatic of comedy traditionally regarding and portraying men as more flawed and funny than women. The long tradition in US sitcoms of the hopeless husband and competent wife was a particularly stifling pretence to respecting women, where I think it was just the opposite.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 5 July 2003 13:52 (twenty years ago) link

Martin raises a good point in his last sentence. The women may not be the ones portrayed as the brainless co-dependant idiots any more like in the days of I Love Lucy, but it's still the women being sucked up to.

Strong female characters such as Cybill S playing the Bruce Willeses off a break may have represented progress, back sometime around 1986. But surely with that 'lesson' now learnt it's time to move on again.

Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:00 (twenty years ago) link

The long tradition in US sitcoms of the hopeless husband and competent wife was a particularly stifling pretence to respecting women, where I think it was just the opposite.

Yeah, OK, hey while we're on the subject, I think Everybody Loves Raymond is interesting in this respect. Raymond's wife (I forget her name) is a stay-at-home mom/housewife and on the surface fits exactly into what you're talking about ... but, is it just me, or is she like the only family sitcom wife/mother (with the exception of Marge) who is actually funny? I think it's interesting that her intelligence and sophistication are a big part of what makes her funny.

jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:00 (twenty years ago) link

....but it's still the women being sucked up to.

by which I mean, the women in the audience.

Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:02 (twenty years ago) link

Well, of course, Fred -- this is television and they gotta sell tampons and dishwashing liquid.

jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:04 (twenty years ago) link

dare I say that this is an accurate reflection of real life tho - in my experience I've never met one woman who goes out on a limb to make people laugh compared to so many men I know who would do that (myself included), most I have met and know who prefer male company for friends probably do so because they enjoy the fact that they're going to laugh a lot more as groups of men can often turn comedy into a friendly but competetive game. the way the female characters on Friends or Sex & The City bounce off each other with witticisms doesnt seem as common in reality, compared to the frequency at which men will do this.

generally male comics are far more revered than female ones too - this is more than just a minor observation though so perhaps should be on another thread but why should this be anymore?

stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:11 (twenty years ago) link

Exactly, Jewelly. And the advertisers and programmers still see their target audience as so stupid and so shallow underneath all that 'modern woman' bullshit, and they are still such a lazy, complacent, anal-retentive breed of WASP yuppies (South Park ties or no), that this landscape will not change any time soon unless some sudden movement panics them into it.

Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:13 (twenty years ago) link

But, anyway, I understand what you're saying Martin (and Fred), the "strong" yet unfunny female really was a condescending way of giving props to women. And I think the female characters on Friends were funny for a while because the writers said fuck all that. I liked the show! And the situation with Everybody Loves Raymond is unique I think. The actress herself exudes a pretty unique brand of intelligence and wit that just can't be manufactured and copied the way sexist stereotypes or "strong" unfunny-women stereotypes can.

jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:16 (twenty years ago) link

Funny women

stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:20 (twenty years ago) link

Hmm ... OK steve, I guess I see your point: men are more inclined to make themselves the butt of jokes than women are. Though I'm such a weird, neurotic pain-in-the-ass that I've accepted being the butt of jokes as a matter of survival pretty much so I can't relate personally ...

jewelly (jewelly), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:21 (twenty years ago) link

not just about being the butt of the joke tho. self-deprecation is probably one of the more common ways in which people - both men and women consciously make people laugh at them. but with men its more an ego thing, attention-seeking but possibly also recognising and drawing attention to the absurd aspects of life. from Monty Python to the writing teams of The Simpsons and its offspring (these teams just seem to be so male-dominated) the examples are plentiful.

stevem (blueski), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:27 (twenty years ago) link

It's 1.30 am Melbourne time. Time to assume a horizontal attitude.

Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:29 (twenty years ago) link

I think I'd accept that men are more likely to show off generally, so are more likely to be wisecracking than women, but if we're talking about funny characters rather than funny comedians, I don't think women are less flawed, or those flaws are less liable to be funny, than men. Friends seems evidence of this, more or less. I don't think the current or past situation is necessarily pandering to women at all, any more than it is to men (obviously advertisers hold most people in low respect). I think not letting women be flawed and therefore funny in a comedy is patronising and retrograde, just as not letting women be strong and capable in action dramas would be. Men still dominate both areas. The fact that more men have been revered as top comics proves no more than that the world has been sexist for a long time, no more than that most revered painter have been male.

French & Saunders used to get loads of complaints from women, you know, complaining that their comedy characters were negative images of women, and they should be providing strong, intelligent, capable role models. I don't think this is likely to lead to huge hilarity, and I don't think that, to take as good parallel examples as I can, Rik & Adrian or Fry & Laurie got the same kind of complaint.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 5 July 2003 14:57 (twenty years ago) link

Just to totally change the subject, the new series of Mastermind started on BBC2 this evening with someone choosing "The Music of the Smiths since 1982" as his specialist subject (he won).

Seeing John Humphreys conduct a bit of "informed" banter (typical question "but aren't they a bit miserable?") with the least-likely-looking Smiths fan in the world, and hearing questions about How Soon Is Now? on Mastermind was one of the weirdest things I have seen on TV this (or any other) year.

ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 7 July 2003 20:38 (twenty years ago) link

typical question "but aren't they a bit miserable?")

am smiling thinking this was one of the actual quiz questions asked

stevem (blueski), Monday, 7 July 2003 20:46 (twenty years ago) link

in one of the sunday papers there was a "oh no!! TV is dumbing down!! oh no!" article based on the fact that knowing abt the smiths is being counted as knowledge

mark s (mark s), Monday, 7 July 2003 20:48 (twenty years ago) link

Hah! Wait until later in the series when someone is doing "The Simpsons" as their specialist subject (cartoons presumably being way dumber than music in the eyes of the Mail-reading Middle-Englanders).

ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 7 July 2003 20:52 (twenty years ago) link

Has there ever been a sitcom to rival The Good Life?
-- Matt (Mat...), May 9th, 2003.

Is this the shortlived sitcom that Drew Carrey had a role in?

Leee (Leee), Monday, 7 July 2003 21:16 (twenty years ago) link

No, he undoubtedly means an old and hugely popular UK one of that name, starring Richard Briers, Felicity Kendall, Penelope Keith and Paul Eddington. It was okay, but rather cosy.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:27 (twenty years ago) link

It is the greatest UK comedy ever made.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 11:35 (twenty years ago) link

the smiths questions included 'what label were they on?', 'what label were they on in america' and 'who was their drummer?'

this = dumbing down.

on a different note, paxman's chiding of the contestants when they couldn't do the binary arithmatic on university challenge last week was funny. after about 5 seconds he'd start hurrying them up whilst they were busy adding 2^7, 2^6 and 2^1 and dividing it by 2^3 plus 2^1.

andy

koogs (koogs), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 19:10 (twenty years ago) link

'what label were they on?', 'what label were they on in america' and 'who was their drummer?'
this = dumbing down.

its so dumbed down, rickshaws are running over it

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 19:16 (twenty years ago) link

Tell me there were some hard ones too - that's just ridiculous. Would we be saying the same thing about questions on 'The Cotton Trade 1750-1900' if that was what we'd misspent our youth on, I wonder. Maybe they've always been easy.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 21:26 (twenty years ago) link

I didn't think the Smiths questions were dumbed down at all - but then, I only got one of them.

In the final Magnus Magnusson series, one of the specialist subject was the Discworld novels; I knew more of the answers than the contestant did. But I wouldn't try to argue that they were asking easy questions, just because I knew what the answers were.

caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 10:32 (twenty years ago) link

all questions are easy if you know the answers

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 10:43 (twenty years ago) link

Well, exactly. If you asked the Average Telly Viewer, they'd probably have as little clue what record label the Smiths were on as, say, any of the questions on Roman history or the British car industry that were on the same show.

caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 10:49 (twenty years ago) link

That's what I was saying.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 10:54 (twenty years ago) link

And more eloquently, too.

caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 10:56 (twenty years ago) link

epistemology in a nutshell

Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:15 (twenty years ago) link

B-but surely if someone is specialising in knowing stuff about the Smiths, then "who is their drummer?" is a piss-easy question.

ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 16:17 (twenty years ago) link

me:
adding 2^7, 2^6 and 2^1 and dividing it by 2^3 plus 2^1

this was wrong. obviously. the first 2^1 should be 2^3 (200 / 10 = 20)

sorry.

/me hangs head

andy

koogs (koogs), Thursday, 10 July 2003 18:01 (twenty years ago) link

three weeks pass...
David Cross and Bob Odenkirk need to be beaten with sticks.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 12:01 (twenty years ago) link

Your first episode of Bo Selecta is always the best.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 12:11 (twenty years ago) link

very true!

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 12:17 (twenty years ago) link

I was recently watching that episode of the Simpsons where the school is cutting expenses, and they have Groundskeeper Willie teaching French.

"Bonjurrrr, yeh Cheese-eatin' Surrender Monkeys"

I occasionally forget that all good things come from the Simpsons. I'm sorry.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 23:33 (twenty years ago) link

That girl drinking a diet coke on a train. She starts seeing suggestive lyrics in the signs around her, she's suddenly "on the pull"... Then when the fella reading a newspaper opposite her puts his paper down he's a spotty teen with a loud shirt. Calamity! She turns to one side and raises her eyebrows in a "what was I thinking" sort of way.

Here's news: YOU'RE NO OIL PAINTING YOURSELF, LOVE.

Alan (Alan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:40 (twenty years ago) link

Yes she looks like Cherie Blair.

j0e (j0e), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:26 (twenty years ago) link

two months pass...
christmas adverts? already? pah

usually they wait until last week of october but both some air freshener thing and boots have already started.

andy

koogs (koogs), Thursday, 16 October 2003 16:50 (twenty years ago) link

I have yet to see a Christmas TV ad, thankfully. Or maybe I just watch programs that wouldn't highlight Christmas ads. I have seen Halloween ads, which is more sensible and logical.

Magical New TV Show I Think As Many People As Possible Should Be Watching: ABC's "Threat Matrix". It's highly engaging and not one of those serial-type series that one would be totally lost over if one were to suddenly start watching it. Each hour-long episode highlights one complete story, and not every episode ends neatly or nicely. I'm really hoping the ratings for this show improve so it won't get cancelled.

Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Friday, 17 October 2003 01:25 (twenty years ago) link

They've started showing a condom ad on TV here. I could be wrong but I thought they avoided doing this (in prime time, certainly). Anyway it's one of those fnarr fnarr overtly suggestive ads - woman sees statue of David's wang and goes "hmmm", man sees woman in shop window undoing mannequin's fly and goes "hmmm", geez they might as well have gone all Percy's Progress and had trains going into tunnels, it was that silly.

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 17 October 2003 02:52 (twenty years ago) link


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