how to make friends and influence ppl (without being a creep)

i'm very reticent to compliment a woman on her looks in the workplace, more likely to compliment them on their work ethic. only feel comfortable complimenting someone if i know them well and know that it's a genuine compliment, otherwise it feels cheap. knowing boundaries is key, sucks to hear there's so much toxic bullshit

To me the way I work with these things is that I start by understanding what is considered respectful/not respectful by someone and then communicate along those lines, it is how I operate with someone I would want as a friend, mentor, a potential partner, male/female, etc this is pretty much how I want to be treated to begin with. If you make a mistake, apologize and then don't do the mistake again. In the workplace (or at school!) there is going to be enough social situations that make you understand how a person wants to be treated. I guess what I'm saying is to apply as much empathy as possible at all times. Some people, male or female, love to get their looks complimented at work, some people, male or female, really dislike it (I dislike it), it is up to you to find out.

I have yet to meet anyone who loves to get their looks complimented at work.

Ross has hit the simplest answer above: "more likely to compliment them on their work ethic". Its been explained well above by VG, LL et al but really, we just want to do our work, and have people compliment and respect and notice *that*, like professionals?

Put yourself in our shoes lads and think how you'd feel if you were constantly commented on for your suit or shoes or hair, but never the awesome meeting agenda you worked overtime to come up with or the budget adjustment that will save the companies arse.

And yes sorry if you have to rehearse and recite a list and you know you sound "robotic", then yeah its going to come over as a little forced and weird. I wish I could come up with a solution there, Ive known guys on the spectrum.

Our office has a yearly "most cheerful staff member" award that always seems to go to a female member of staff. We complain about it every year and get the normal "buzzkill" and "you're overthinking it" responses.

I just try to be respectful of people as people and as professionals. That's the "rule" to begin with. If I happen to build a foundation of mutual trust and personal friendship with some colleagues, then and only then would I start to look for signs to see if things like appreciation of clothes, or let's say goodbye hugs before a long trip, would be welcome and feel natural. If something feels awkward or weird, that's probably because, regardless of intention, that foundation isn't there yet.

I would add that I don't consider it ok to build such a work-based friendship with just anyone. There are cases where it's not appropriate, given your relative places in the organizational structure.

Forgive me if this is stating the obvious, or just repeating what others have said, but I think there's a straightforward reason why there can never be stark lines between acceptable social behavior and misconduct. It's because the point of coming up with these kinds of rules, for well-meaning people, would be to protect others from feelings of distress, fear, and violation. But what causes these feelings will vary widely with context and from one person to another. The only rules that could fully capture all the requisite nuance would be too complicated to even state, let alone apply to everyday life.

For ill-meaning people, meanwhile--and I'm not talking about anyone here--the point of drawing these lines is to be able to get away with hurting people by claiming that you technically followed the rules.

So we have to make do with rules of thumb and try to deal with the exceptions as they come. This places a heavier burden on people with social difficulties. That's just the nature of the situation.

I've worked with lots of people with "social difficulties" and I don't find them any worse or better at dealing with gender issues than "regular" folk. If anything people tend to be more forgiving. (I may work in an abnormally nice office, not that it doesn't have its own problems, like a maternity leave policy that's basically evil.)

I've worked with lots of people with "social difficulties" and I don't find them any worse or better at dealing with gender issues than "regular" folk

Not to make this All About Me, but I have a son with a pretty serious intellectual disability. (Feel free to scroll if I mention this too often, but it's a huge part of the topic for me.)

Right now he's 6, tremendously outgoing and social and affectionate. His interactions are still mostly in the cute-but-odd zone. He can't talk, so he expresses himself with a lot of gestures and a lot of touch. He hugs a lot of people, blows kisses at a lot of people (an extension of ASL "thank you"). Sometimes he will awkwardly/sloppily kiss friends, teachers, babysitters.

We are working hard on getting him to tone it down, and do more handshakes/high-fives. Because we know that what's cute at age 4-5 will be seriously inappropriate at age 11-12. Also working on learning that the context of gymnastics class or physical therapy (where touching is normal) are different from music class or speech therapy. Of course, lots of our friends/family love him to pieces and tell us it's all right; they like hugs, etc. But it complicates the message that not everybody wants a hug.

This is one of those moments when the person who's addressing you just throws out a totally bland observational statement and then expects you to pick up the conversational slack.

lol yes it was awful. i offered nothing! respected the hell out of his immediate smackdown tbh

My ASC son is 15 now. And his violent behaviour has become a major hazard, and his frequent unrestrained masturbation has gone way beyond the cute but odd zone! But he never directs it towards women or men so far, he just humps his pillow in his bedroom, often very loudly and the rule is, he shuts the fucking door and what he does is his business. i don't know if that is a long term winner, but it'll do for me for now.

I was pretty disgusted to see this deeply unpleasant article published on a UK HR Resource site:
https://www.hrzone.com/engage/employees/how-can-we-better-understand-the-office-creep

There's so much rich insight coming out of the academic sector that HR professionals need to know. At Academics' Corner we feature the best HR researchers that tell you what they’ve found and what you need to do differently on the back of the research. Get connected to the academic sector through Academics’ Corner and make sure you never miss another piece of key research again...

And the insights?

If you are having trouble thinking of who the creep is at your workplace, it probably means that you are the guy....

The person is behaving in ways that make him unpredictable. Maybe he laughs too hard or at inappropriate times. Perhaps he stands too close to you, licks his lips a bit too frequently while speaking, or the eye contact is inappropriately intimate or distant.

Does he keep steering the conversation in the direction of sex or other topics that seem ill suited to the setting?

If the person has unusual or unpleasant prominent physical characteristics, the impression of creepiness can be magnified.

It would be considered rude or embarrassing to scream and run away from this odd person who has done nothing overtly threatening, but, on the other hand, it could be perilous to ignore your intuition and get more deeply involved in an interaction that could lead to danger. After all, if the person is clueless about the mundane rules of normal human interaction, what other rules might he be willing to violate? This ambivalence leaves you frozen in place, wallowing in unease.

Our “creep detectors” activate in situations like this to help us maintain a state of hyper-vigilance to help us figure out if there is in fact anything to fear or not. Being creeped out can be mentally exhausting because it uses a lot of our available cognitive processing capacity.

Wow that is so awful.

If you are having trouble thinking of who the creep is at your workplace, it probably means that you are the guy.

Shit. I'm the only man in my current workplace, so I guess it's me. I'd better report myself to management. Which is also me! Crap, I'm going to have to fire me. AWKWARD.

I suppose the problem with the idea of the 'office creep' is that sometimes there really is an office creep, and sometimes, Childish Adults like to gang up on someone and bully them by calling them the office creep. Sometimes the person called the office creep really doesn't deserve it, whilst several more deserving candidates go unchallenged. Sometimes probably most of the time the situation is somewhere between all these.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that men prob shouldn't treat the workplace as a source of sexy women to be flirted with. Some of the men saying 'But what CAN I say?' sound like this is their problem. Some of them sound legit confused and well-meaning though. What about other men you work with who clearly do go in to work to flirt and no-one seems to mind? Is it okay because no-one seems to mind?

I think the discussion up-thread where good will and ill will come up is otm x100, no? Suppose two well-meaning people; if one of them accidentally makes a faux-pas to the other it surely won't be too hard to patch up; but bring an ill-meaning person into the equation ...

There is also a really important difference, and I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, between basically good exciting jobs that you want for a career, like being a lawyer or whatever, and dead-end jobs you're doing because you need the money. These workplaces are v different, the idea of 'professionalism' is a lot more self-evident in some jobs than others.

^^^ this

If the person has unusual or unpleasant prominent physical characteristics, the impression of creepiness can be magnified.

jesus christ

It would be considered rude or embarrassing to scream and run away from this odd person who has done nothing overtly threatening, but, on the other hand, it could be perilous to ignore your intuition and get more deeply involved in an interaction that could lead to danger. After all, if the person is clueless about the mundane rules of normal human interaction, what other rules might he be willing to violate? This ambivalence leaves you frozen in place, wallowing in unease.

is this a parody?

are strange, socially awkward people the ones who are harassing people? or is this article conflating two separate phenomena: sexual predation and poor social skills.

Just responding to the OP, I haven't delved further yet: That's a woeful misinterpretation of my comments on the other thread. For one, I'm pretty much an outsider looking in on the drama. I'm at zero risk of ever being accused of sexual harassment at my job. I'm a rather introverted and taciturn person: I don't intentionally flirt. I'm no longer sexually attracted to anything, and to my knowledge have never been suspected of untoward behavior even when I was. My interest isn't personal, but societal.

My intent was to point out that there was a glib assumption on that thread that the lines between what is unacceptable harassment, and what is innocuous flirtation, are clear to everyone. They aren't. Life doesn't come with an instruction manual.

The most interesting articles regarding the current moment, for me, have been those that step back, and while acknowledging that there's predatory behavior worthy of prison, termination, or ostracization, there's also a wide grey area of acts that when discomfiting could constitute sexual harassment, but when appealing (to the recipient) could also be flirtation. Allison Benedikt's The Upside of Office Flirtation?, for example.

It's good that our society is having this moment. There are plenty of people who have been intimidated into silence for too long. I would like something more to come of it than endless revelations that seemingly most men, given any power, are terrible. This is a teachable moment, for boys, too. I'd like a clearer consensus as to what's acceptable to emerge.

I don't think there is a clear distinction between career jobs and paying the bills jobs, or that it matters much in terms of whats appropriate. Also worth remembering that in the UK at least married couples are more likely to have met at work than anywhere else.

Is that true now?

To me, work is purely about rent - that drives all my attitudes. So compliments are given purely where my (male or female) work colleague has done something to get us all through the day in an easier way. That's all I expect in return. Even then, I know this is forgotten as soon as its given. Tomorrow is another day.

fwiw every single time i have witnessed actual "flirtation" among colleagues - and it's been very rare - it has been, 100% of the time without exception, totally gross and everybody witnessing it felt embarrassed and awkward about it

you're right, sanpaku, there are no bright lines - what is innocuous to one party, or at least "just a bit of fun", can feel threatening and awful to someone else

i'm not sure who was being "glib" about this - many people were making this exact point

anyway, ultimately why not follow the hippocratic oath? first, do no harm. just don't flirt at the office. millions of people manage to restrain themselves from flirting at the office every day! it's okay. society will survive a lack of office flirtation! in fact, if you listen to the women on this thread, and elsewhere - it will probably thrive!

every single time i have witnessed actual "flirtation" among colleagues - and it's been very rare - it has been, 100% of the time without exception, totally gross and everybody witnessing it felt embarrassed and awkward about it

my college roommate was a natural flirter and he'd grokked for himself the PUA rules so he'd always be touching women's hands and ugh. he met a girl in the period before classes started in our first year and dated her throughout college, so he was NOT on the prowl, he was just naturally this way. dunno what the women thought of him, I liked him otherwise but found this stuff awful.

he ended up knocking up the girl by the end of senior year, then marrying her. they got divorced at some point recently & I see from fb that's she's remarried. guess that KINO ran out eventually.

I thought I'd read a survey from the last few years saying work was still the most common place to meet a spouse altho the only thing I can find atm is one saying that spouses who met at work are more likely to stay together than those who met by other means. It's definitely very common though, so anyone campaigning to eradicate workplace flirtation in toto is going to have quite a battle on their hands

HR are cops- no surprise that they understand little and care less, and look for easy targets

XP yeah the answer is not gonna be 100% nor 0% folks sorry if that's a spoiler

I’ve dated people from work.

actually just thought about a few things from past life yeh I can't say any of it ended especially well - or especially badly really

You already have shared experiences, and even shared grievances with other colleagues. Working together is a powerful bonding experience.

There are also many downsides. And if the workplace is too small it xan be a really bad idea. But still, I think that if people think they have a shot at love they should take it because personal relationships are more important than HR prerogatives. What I’m talking about is different than being the office cad.

A possible glimmer of positivity is that more work mobility / nontraditional work arrangements mean that just because you meet at work doesn't mean you have to work together closely. Odds are, one or both of you will soon move on to a different job. Or maybe one of you is a freelancer or consultant and will be moving on to a different assignment soon.

It makes things a lot easier. My one - one - workplace dalliance didn't really start in earnest until I'd left that job.

I’m on team work is work. Be nice/pleasant, say good morning/night/how was your weekend, but generally just mind your own business and get your work done.

my only girlfriend from work dumped me because i was too young for her. she immediately starting dating the (older) design director. seeing them together was so agonising that i quit and didn't reach the same career level until approx 10 years later ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

at one job this guy who sat in the same work group as me ended up being my mortal enemy because I was seeing a colleague who he'd had an unrequited crush on for years - me and the woman in question got together after meeting socially tho, not thru workplace flirtation

Team work is work and college is college and food time is food time and whatnot

What's your mating schedule

Only in nightclubs or

And death is death

being is

people are people

I am team "don't hit on people at work" tho

Office flirtation will never end because *drum rolls*

People are people

xp Hashtag metoo but "work is work" is bizarre stuff unless you don't work with any humans

I definitely don’t think people “should” do that but sometimes things happen and people get together.

.....
Profit

you're right, sanpaku, there are no bright lines - what is innocuous to one party, or at least "just a bit of fun", can feel threatening and awful to someone else

i'm not sure who was being "glib" about this - many people were making this exact point

yeah that is exactly what i thought. I'm irritated that sanpaku thought he needed to teach us this Very Important Lesson by pretending he didn't understand how people work -- that was my fear as stated upthread and I'm not especially satisfied to have been right.

In terms of who was being "glib" about this, imo the following is pretty glib and also representative of the general response to Sanpaku in the other thread:

Sanpaku is worried that if he compliments a co-worker on their hair, clothes etc, that some might take it as flirtation or indeed harassment and he could lose his job.

Let's fix this, ILX! we can do it!

what may help is that I've never heard of the above scenario actually happening? it may be more of a.... PHANTOM MENACE

We'll get started on planning the third thread folks.....it'll be grand

soref we've been over that and I've apologised

fwiw those posts were entirely sincere

I like Feminista Jones's attitude about unwanted compliments. Respond back with "I Know!" But yeah, I am team work is work. Women are not in the workforce to find a husband. Don't patronize a colleague by making small talk about their looks. This is so stupid. If you hit on colleagues at work as a thing, you have terrible judgement and more than likely people have been warned about you.

Some of my friends and I were just talking yesterday about men in cars stopping to ask directions or to ask the time, and then you see they are jacking it or they then ask you an extremely graphic question.

I'm going to pile on a bit (sorry Tracer ilu) and say that 'being a creep' is generally pretty unhelpful framing because it gets people defensive, as it's about them, and they know they're not a creep. 'acting like a creep' or similar moves the focus of what we want to avoid outwards to 'things that your co-workers might find awkward'.

ftr tracer is blameless in my rephrased thread title and has already new culpa'd himself sincerely for the rest