how to make friends and influence ppl (without being a creep)

xposts: I agree LL that hair is often a dead-end, but noticing something like, let's say, someone's cool vintage shoes, old bike jersey, or interesting t-shirt can lead to stories about where they got the item, the "hunt" involved, maybe the event associated with it (music show/bike ride/race, etc). it can end up becoming a conversation about a lot more than just that piece of clothing.

La Lechera otm. SO many other things to talk about.

i once worked at a place where the owner felt it was very important for us to be "family". unfortunately for everyone involved he did a very good job at implementing that environment.

the "family" concept is problematic to say the least, but i stand by the idea that for some jobs, a straightforward and mostly impersonal "professional" environment is not enough to sustain those doing the front-line work, and to protect them from burnout.

1. It comes across as false modesty, “sorry if I’m staying the obvious” 2. It assumes people on this thread you aren’t following closely are being idiots 3. And yes, it was stated quite clearly in the precursor discussion to this thread - where you pulled pretty much the same thing.

Your hair looks great though, did you do something with it?

cool, keep enjoying your emotional hair-trigger

La Lechera otm x 1000

I guess one thing to avoid too is the not paying attention dad-style compliment, e.g. "I like what you've done with your hair" "Thanks for noticing dad, it's been like this for three years."

At the office that becomes your manager telling you you've done a great job (or whatever) or some piece of work, and you're left thinking "Yep, this is the same thing I've been doing for years, totally unrecognised, thanks for finally paying attention."

I kinda can't fathom addressing the appearance of a coworker I wasn't actively chummy with, aside from maybe like, 'hey, buddy, maybe you need to rethink that mesh shirt before the boss comes around, whaddaya say?'

ogmor otm basically

I am always being reminded that even amongst people I am close to there are a wide variety of often conflicting ideas about what normal/acceptable/good behaviour consists of, and there is no way that universal simple clear rules could operate other than to silence some people and tell them they're being oversensitive/not sensitive enough

― ogmor, Sunday, January 7, 2018 9:53 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is true, and I think regarding LL's story it's extremely important to trust the gut instinct that says something is being said in a way that is "off" or in a way that makes you uncomfortable.

My mom told a story about being at a nature preserve last year taking photos and she was alone, and a very "nice" seeming random middle aged guy offered to help her with her photos, since she was requiring some help in setting someone thing up. Why did he offer?? She wasn't sure. But it seemed innocuous. BUT she felt weirded out. She did let him help but she said she should have trusted her first instinct -- he started to get inexplicably testy when she was taking awhile to set something up. She took a moment to "go back to her car for something" and quickly drove off.

She's sure that guy was just an asshole but she said she was kicking herself for not splitting immediately.

I also remember a date I had where the woman suddenly shut down conversationally and shortly thereafter got up and left. She later emailed me and explained that I had used some turns of phrase that reminded me of an extremely bad ex. I forget what they were. I at first thought maybe it was her way out of a crappy date but I don't think so; I was kind of annoyed tbh but I look back and of. Purse it was her total right to be weirded out by anything. If you cross a line--even if you find the line to be one that is not commonly considered a line--you either have to reconsider how you should approach situations OR at the very least accept that you crossed someone's personal line and respect their decision and allow them their feeling.

Seems like we should calibrate our behavior for the 999 times that doesn't happen, not for the one time it does, maybe?

Because overwhelmingly, the stories of guys actually being creeps dramatically outnumber the stories of innocuous statements that someone, somewhere, once found creepy.

I’m not sure “stories” is the right noun there YMP

"of. Purse" should be "of course" not sure what the hell happened there...

xxp

yeah omar otm

i know this is a v common subject on twitter now & more common out in public than the workplace but i cannot stress this enough: dudes need to understand how quickly an innocuous situation can spiral into weird for women in the blink of an eye

an older man at the post office asked me to help him fill out a form because he had impaired vision from cataracts & so i said sure. (my old college tutor had similar issues & i knew how difficult fine print was)
so as i’m reading the form to him he moved very close & said in a low voice “my you sure are a beautiful young lady” and i quickly said “ok i have to leave now” and bolted

like maybe he was lonely and didnt have much contact with ppl or maybe the story was a ploy to stand close to women either way it’s scary & infuriating that straightforward situation A becomes wtf situation ! in like a fucking nanosecond in a seemingly safe public place surrounded by ppl

i hate it

if a stranger or someone i never have interacted with socially pays me a compliment i take it with the mindset of expecting the other shoe to drop. ie inevitable weird awkward uncomfortable followup
so am a) immediately suspicious and b) usually keep moving

because it happens ALL the time
all the time

if it’s someone you know that’s different but compliments for us, ie women, so often have a creepy awful catch out in the world

this happened when i was in my 20’s. i was sitting by a pool at a hotel dangling my feet in the water, in jeans & a tshirt

a guy was reading on a lounge chair & made conversation. all was fine, very innocuous.

after a while he got up to leave & said “i like that color red on you” & handed me a piece of paper with a 3 digit number on it.

i was not wearing anything red. except my underpants. which were showing slightly above the waistband of my jeans bcz i was sitting down.

the number was his room number.

i was so horrified & humiliated that i went back to my room and stayed there til i checked out the next day.

seriously who does that!? why would you do that

man that is gross. i can think of many situations that turned on a dime like that.

recently i was on the train on the way home (alone) from a musical performance on a sunday afternoon.
an older man in a red tracksuit struck up a conversation with me, and i was ok with it because 1) i enjoy talking to strangers 2) whatever who cares, no one else to talk to
we chatted about dogs, the weather, the performance i saw
i was careful not to tell him too much about myself, i did mention i am married. i was slowly edging away from this person.
he said "you look too young to be married, look at you -- you don't even need makeup"
and that's when i had to tell this old man "hey, that's not ok. you shouldn't make comments on a stranger's appearance or they will get the wrong idea"
he actually looked at me in the face and said "i'm a man, i have to try"
i said "no, actually you don't" and we talked a little more about dogs

but like this is a throwaway conversation with a random OLD MAN ON THE TRAIN

if you are still like "O NO how can i compliment my coworkers on their cute boots?!?!?!?!" i really wonder how genuine this concern is and how much you just want to sweat people to "hash out the rules"

I think these last two posts show why people have got to stfu in the workplace sometimes, there is too much fucked up male behaviour out there for any female to assume that you are a benign and lovely person who just really happens to like commenting on women's jumpers/coffee mugs/boots etc

i also wonder if certain guys think that flattery is how they have to initiate conversation with a woman, like a sort of gambit “she would never talk to me otherwise” kind of thing? like they’ve been taught this somewhere

it isn’t necessary!

sure if something genuinely catches your eye maybe but as a general way of interacting, talking about ~things out in the world~ is just fine

veg otm

what male co-workers think their hugs feel like vs. what they actually feel like pic.twitter.com/9FnsiS4qW7

— Audrey Porne (@AudreyPorne) January 6, 2018

I can't imagine never ever EVER talking or wanting to talk to a co-worker about their looks, and whenever another dude talks to me about a woman in this way (which is thankfully rare) I want to die

xpost lol truth

LL: ugh. So sad and sorry that happened/happens.

Still I think "no, actually you don't" is an A+ response

Jared Kushner at thirty-six prided himself on his ability to get along with older men.

uhh

If you cross a line--even if you find the line to be one that is not commonly considered a line--you either have to reconsider how you should approach situations OR at the very least accept that you crossed someone's personal line and respect their decision and allow them their feeling.

this may well be a failure of comprehension on my part, but I don't understand what "reconsider how you should approach situations" means here unless it's looking for more rules on how to interact with ppl, or more complex, more nuanced rules with more caveats and conditions?

(I mean, obv if someone tells you that they consider a specific thing you've done or said crossed a line and creeped them out that you should respect that and not do/say that thing again, but I think you're talking about how not to creep someone out in the first place?)

wrt to the gut instinct that someone is "off" or "weird" in some way that makes you uncomfortable - my fear is that I always come across as as off and weird and I don't know how to correct that - I spent years trying to learn the rules of how to talk to ppl, the set of rules I carried around in my head being added to and getting more and more unwieldy every time another attempt to interact with someone ended in disaster (NB I'm not only talking about interactions with women here, or where someone inferred that I was trying to proposition them in some way - I've never tried to chat someone up, and always avoid talking about ppl's appearance or anything that I think could be interpreted as sexually suggestive - but all failed interactions with men or women where they seem weirded out). But adding to the rules didn't work and I think now that it's maybe a dead end, it's a million little things, eye contact, body language, dress sense as much as what you actually say and I don't think I'll ever be able to get them all "right".

I'd read stuff by women where they imply that men breaking social rules/crossing lines, even wrt to apparently innocuous non-sexual stuff makes them feel unsafe, because if someone is willing to break *this* social rule then who knows what over rules they might break? I guess this is the gut instinct thing. If a woman feels creeped out by something I do or say, or by *me* more generally then I "allow them their feeling" as Omar says, I can't say that they're wrong to feel that way, but I don't know what the solution is, if not a better understanding of the rules? I've tried to remove myself from human interaction as much as possible over the last few years because it has always ended badly, if not creeping someone out then at least annoying them, or being taken advantage of by them. But I've met other ppl who are socially awkward and apparently unaware of it, or who at least persist in trying to talk to other ppl anyway, and the thought of being one of those people is horrifying to me, I don't think there's anything these ppl could do to improve themselves either, they are just fundamentally repulsive at some level?

I was struck by this thing that La Lechera said in the other thread about why she found the guy's comment on her hair objectionable

it struck me as memorable because of how scripted it felt, like it was from a reader's digest "list of things to say to women if you want to make a positive impression"

because whenever I would try to talk to someone (about anything, not specifically about their hair), particularly when consciously trying to follow these 'rules' so as not to be creepy, my speech would sound off-puttingly robotic and I got the impression that this in itself creeped ppl out - I don't know what the alternative is though, this stuff doesn't come naturally?

i'm very reticent to compliment a woman on her looks in the workplace, more likely to compliment them on their work ethic. only feel comfortable complimenting someone if i know them well and know that it's a genuine compliment, otherwise it feels cheap. knowing boundaries is key, sucks to hear there's so much toxic bullshit

To me the way I work with these things is that I start by understanding what is considered respectful/not respectful by someone and then communicate along those lines, it is how I operate with someone I would want as a friend, mentor, a potential partner, male/female, etc this is pretty much how I want to be treated to begin with. If you make a mistake, apologize and then don't do the mistake again. In the workplace (or at school!) there is going to be enough social situations that make you understand how a person wants to be treated. I guess what I'm saying is to apply as much empathy as possible at all times. Some people, male or female, love to get their looks complimented at work, some people, male or female, really dislike it (I dislike it), it is up to you to find out.

I have yet to meet anyone who loves to get their looks complimented at work.

Ross has hit the simplest answer above: "more likely to compliment them on their work ethic". Its been explained well above by VG, LL et al but really, we just want to do our work, and have people compliment and respect and notice *that*, like professionals?

Put yourself in our shoes lads and think how you'd feel if you were constantly commented on for your suit or shoes or hair, but never the awesome meeting agenda you worked overtime to come up with or the budget adjustment that will save the companies arse.

And yes sorry if you have to rehearse and recite a list and you know you sound "robotic", then yeah its going to come over as a little forced and weird. I wish I could come up with a solution there, Ive known guys on the spectrum.

Our office has a yearly "most cheerful staff member" award that always seems to go to a female member of staff. We complain about it every year and get the normal "buzzkill" and "you're overthinking it" responses.

I just try to be respectful of people as people and as professionals. That's the "rule" to begin with. If I happen to build a foundation of mutual trust and personal friendship with some colleagues, then and only then would I start to look for signs to see if things like appreciation of clothes, or let's say goodbye hugs before a long trip, would be welcome and feel natural. If something feels awkward or weird, that's probably because, regardless of intention, that foundation isn't there yet.

I would add that I don't consider it ok to build such a work-based friendship with just anyone. There are cases where it's not appropriate, given your relative places in the organizational structure.

Forgive me if this is stating the obvious, or just repeating what others have said, but I think there's a straightforward reason why there can never be stark lines between acceptable social behavior and misconduct. It's because the point of coming up with these kinds of rules, for well-meaning people, would be to protect others from feelings of distress, fear, and violation. But what causes these feelings will vary widely with context and from one person to another. The only rules that could fully capture all the requisite nuance would be too complicated to even state, let alone apply to everyday life.

For ill-meaning people, meanwhile--and I'm not talking about anyone here--the point of drawing these lines is to be able to get away with hurting people by claiming that you technically followed the rules.

So we have to make do with rules of thumb and try to deal with the exceptions as they come. This places a heavier burden on people with social difficulties. That's just the nature of the situation.

I've worked with lots of people with "social difficulties" and I don't find them any worse or better at dealing with gender issues than "regular" folk. If anything people tend to be more forgiving. (I may work in an abnormally nice office, not that it doesn't have its own problems, like a maternity leave policy that's basically evil.)

I've worked with lots of people with "social difficulties" and I don't find them any worse or better at dealing with gender issues than "regular" folk

Not to make this All About Me, but I have a son with a pretty serious intellectual disability. (Feel free to scroll if I mention this too often, but it's a huge part of the topic for me.)

Right now he's 6, tremendously outgoing and social and affectionate. His interactions are still mostly in the cute-but-odd zone. He can't talk, so he expresses himself with a lot of gestures and a lot of touch. He hugs a lot of people, blows kisses at a lot of people (an extension of ASL "thank you"). Sometimes he will awkwardly/sloppily kiss friends, teachers, babysitters.

We are working hard on getting him to tone it down, and do more handshakes/high-fives. Because we know that what's cute at age 4-5 will be seriously inappropriate at age 11-12. Also working on learning that the context of gymnastics class or physical therapy (where touching is normal) are different from music class or speech therapy. Of course, lots of our friends/family love him to pieces and tell us it's all right; they like hugs, etc. But it complicates the message that not everybody wants a hug.

This is one of those moments when the person who's addressing you just throws out a totally bland observational statement and then expects you to pick up the conversational slack.

lol yes it was awful. i offered nothing! respected the hell out of his immediate smackdown tbh

My ASC son is 15 now. And his violent behaviour has become a major hazard, and his frequent unrestrained masturbation has gone way beyond the cute but odd zone! But he never directs it towards women or men so far, he just humps his pillow in his bedroom, often very loudly and the rule is, he shuts the fucking door and what he does is his business. i don't know if that is a long term winner, but it'll do for me for now.

I was pretty disgusted to see this deeply unpleasant article published on a UK HR Resource site:
https://www.hrzone.com/engage/employees/how-can-we-better-understand-the-office-creep

There's so much rich insight coming out of the academic sector that HR professionals need to know. At Academics' Corner we feature the best HR researchers that tell you what they’ve found and what you need to do differently on the back of the research. Get connected to the academic sector through Academics’ Corner and make sure you never miss another piece of key research again...

And the insights?

If you are having trouble thinking of who the creep is at your workplace, it probably means that you are the guy....

The person is behaving in ways that make him unpredictable. Maybe he laughs too hard or at inappropriate times. Perhaps he stands too close to you, licks his lips a bit too frequently while speaking, or the eye contact is inappropriately intimate or distant.

Does he keep steering the conversation in the direction of sex or other topics that seem ill suited to the setting?

If the person has unusual or unpleasant prominent physical characteristics, the impression of creepiness can be magnified.

It would be considered rude or embarrassing to scream and run away from this odd person who has done nothing overtly threatening, but, on the other hand, it could be perilous to ignore your intuition and get more deeply involved in an interaction that could lead to danger. After all, if the person is clueless about the mundane rules of normal human interaction, what other rules might he be willing to violate? This ambivalence leaves you frozen in place, wallowing in unease.

Our “creep detectors” activate in situations like this to help us maintain a state of hyper-vigilance to help us figure out if there is in fact anything to fear or not. Being creeped out can be mentally exhausting because it uses a lot of our available cognitive processing capacity.

Wow that is so awful.

If you are having trouble thinking of who the creep is at your workplace, it probably means that you are the guy.

Shit. I'm the only man in my current workplace, so I guess it's me. I'd better report myself to management. Which is also me! Crap, I'm going to have to fire me. AWKWARD.

I suppose the problem with the idea of the 'office creep' is that sometimes there really is an office creep, and sometimes, Childish Adults like to gang up on someone and bully them by calling them the office creep. Sometimes the person called the office creep really doesn't deserve it, whilst several more deserving candidates go unchallenged. Sometimes probably most of the time the situation is somewhere between all these.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that men prob shouldn't treat the workplace as a source of sexy women to be flirted with. Some of the men saying 'But what CAN I say?' sound like this is their problem. Some of them sound legit confused and well-meaning though. What about other men you work with who clearly do go in to work to flirt and no-one seems to mind? Is it okay because no-one seems to mind?

I think the discussion up-thread where good will and ill will come up is otm x100, no? Suppose two well-meaning people; if one of them accidentally makes a faux-pas to the other it surely won't be too hard to patch up; but bring an ill-meaning person into the equation ...

There is also a really important difference, and I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, between basically good exciting jobs that you want for a career, like being a lawyer or whatever, and dead-end jobs you're doing because you need the money. These workplaces are v different, the idea of 'professionalism' is a lot more self-evident in some jobs than others.

^^^ this

If the person has unusual or unpleasant prominent physical characteristics, the impression of creepiness can be magnified.

jesus christ

It would be considered rude or embarrassing to scream and run away from this odd person who has done nothing overtly threatening, but, on the other hand, it could be perilous to ignore your intuition and get more deeply involved in an interaction that could lead to danger. After all, if the person is clueless about the mundane rules of normal human interaction, what other rules might he be willing to violate? This ambivalence leaves you frozen in place, wallowing in unease.

is this a parody?

are strange, socially awkward people the ones who are harassing people? or is this article conflating two separate phenomena: sexual predation and poor social skills.

Just responding to the OP, I haven't delved further yet: That's a woeful misinterpretation of my comments on the other thread. For one, I'm pretty much an outsider looking in on the drama. I'm at zero risk of ever being accused of sexual harassment at my job. I'm a rather introverted and taciturn person: I don't intentionally flirt. I'm no longer sexually attracted to anything, and to my knowledge have never been suspected of untoward behavior even when I was. My interest isn't personal, but societal.

My intent was to point out that there was a glib assumption on that thread that the lines between what is unacceptable harassment, and what is innocuous flirtation, are clear to everyone. They aren't. Life doesn't come with an instruction manual.

The most interesting articles regarding the current moment, for me, have been those that step back, and while acknowledging that there's predatory behavior worthy of prison, termination, or ostracization, there's also a wide grey area of acts that when discomfiting could constitute sexual harassment, but when appealing (to the recipient) could also be flirtation. Allison Benedikt's The Upside of Office Flirtation?, for example.

It's good that our society is having this moment. There are plenty of people who have been intimidated into silence for too long. I would like something more to come of it than endless revelations that seemingly most men, given any power, are terrible. This is a teachable moment, for boys, too. I'd like a clearer consensus as to what's acceptable to emerge.

I don't think there is a clear distinction between career jobs and paying the bills jobs, or that it matters much in terms of whats appropriate. Also worth remembering that in the UK at least married couples are more likely to have met at work than anywhere else.

Is that true now?

To me, work is purely about rent - that drives all my attitudes. So compliments are given purely where my (male or female) work colleague has done something to get us all through the day in an easier way. That's all I expect in return. Even then, I know this is forgotten as soon as its given. Tomorrow is another day.

fwiw every single time i have witnessed actual "flirtation" among colleagues - and it's been very rare - it has been, 100% of the time without exception, totally gross and everybody witnessing it felt embarrassed and awkward about it

you're right, sanpaku, there are no bright lines - what is innocuous to one party, or at least "just a bit of fun", can feel threatening and awful to someone else

i'm not sure who was being "glib" about this - many people were making this exact point

anyway, ultimately why not follow the hippocratic oath? first, do no harm. just don't flirt at the office. millions of people manage to restrain themselves from flirting at the office every day! it's okay. society will survive a lack of office flirtation! in fact, if you listen to the women on this thread, and elsewhere - it will probably thrive!

every single time i have witnessed actual "flirtation" among colleagues - and it's been very rare - it has been, 100% of the time without exception, totally gross and everybody witnessing it felt embarrassed and awkward about it

my college roommate was a natural flirter and he'd grokked for himself the PUA rules so he'd always be touching women's hands and ugh. he met a girl in the period before classes started in our first year and dated her throughout college, so he was NOT on the prowl, he was just naturally this way. dunno what the women thought of him, I liked him otherwise but found this stuff awful.

he ended up knocking up the girl by the end of senior year, then marrying her. they got divorced at some point recently & I see from fb that's she's remarried. guess that KINO ran out eventually.