how to make friends and influence ppl (without being a creep)

I don't know if I'm stating the obvious but it's possible to compliment someone on something that doesn't involve their looks or their clothing choices

can't believe people are talking about themselves on a messageboard

we need to get back to the issues

issues are not workplace appropriate imo

Oh good the guy who said this conversation was the same as guys complaining that feminism means they can’t hold the door open for ladies anymore is back to continue belittling a discussion that he can’t be bothered to read

And yeah you are stating the obvious thanks

Specifically on a thread which is about interacting with other ppl tho? I mean, there've been reactions from them right? Just not thrilled with how "and then I did this and felt like this because I'm a person who feels this" this thread feels. xpost

If you're an extrovert who is new to a city, has few/no local contacts, and works all the time, you may depend more heavily on work to provide your social circle. Also if you work in an industry or for an organization where the ethos is "we work hard and we play hard." You know, like those 90s/00s offices with foosball and a keg.

If you telework, or have a lot going on outside work, you might depend on work less for your social outlet. It varies.

Perhaps that's why some people are having a hard time knowing the rules. And other people are like, "Huh? How is this even hard?"

Sorry you felt belittled on the thread about men assaulting women

I am always being reminded that even amongst people I am close to there are a wide variety of often conflicting ideas about what normal/acceptable/good behaviour consists of, and there is no way that universal simple clear rules could operate other than to silence some people and tell them they're being oversensitive/not sensitive enough

Does Rushomancy live in the 1950s?

― emil.y

the 1970s, but seriously, whatever year it is now this sort of thing does still happen on a regular basis.

When I started wearing jeans that fit/looked good a woman I ended up friends with presumed from a distance I'd gotten a girlfriend, that was like 10 years ago

"try talking about literally anything aside from the person's appearance" = much better way to develop work friendships than a compliment, to which the person replies "thanks" and the conversation ends there.

think about it for a full minute. how many other things are there in the world to talk about that might be better received than "i like what you've done with your hair"
i hope you think about that for a nice long while (more than a minute) before you wonder "when will i be able to compliment my coworkers' hair safely and without fear?"

Maybe some people approach work differently because it's become their main social outlet? Perhaps because they have relatively few meatspace friends outside work? Perhaps because modern work styles just occupy so much of their day/week that they can't bear it not being social? I don't know.

yeah Mad Puffin, and I'd add a variant to that phenomenon of work-as-social life, just from my own experience: people who work at mission-driven non-profits, where they're dealing on the one hand with intense political issues on the one hand, and with clients who are in frequent crisis/trauma on the other. ime many if not most of the front-line workers (and often the managers as well) need to feel a sense of supportiveness and belonging in such a workplace -- the word 'family' is often invoked and not entirely out of place. That sense of support comes from a mixture of things: feeling respected, having friends in the office (it doesn't need to be everyone, but at least a few), being able to laugh, a sense of informality... This feeling -of real friendship- seems to me incredibly important as a protective factor against burnout, the accumulation of stress, vicarious trauma, etc.

I know exceptions to this. I've known people in such settings who are glad to head straight to their cubicles, check off action items, eat at their desk, leave at five pm, and be done with it. Most of the examples that come to mind though are folks whose jobs were less client-oriented to begin with (the accountant, the IT guy, etc).

The last person that I ran into -quite serious- difficulties with ito presumption of romantic interest was somebody I had only ever spoken to about (and complimented her on) her work

Sorry you felt belittled on the thread about men assaulting women

― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:46 (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sorry you felt you had to come into this thread to earn your badge for that

yeah Mad Puffin, and I'd add a variant to that phenomenon of work-as-social life, just from my own experience: people who work at mission-driven non-profits, where they're dealing on the one hand with intense political issues on the one hand, and with clients who are in frequent crisis/trauma on the other. ime many if not most of the front-line workers (and often the managers as well) need to feel a sense of supportiveness and belonging in such a workplace -- the word 'family' is often invoked and not entirely out of place. That sense of support comes from a mixture of things: feeling respected, having friends in the office (it doesn't need to be everyone, but at least a few), being able to laugh, a sense of informality... This feeling -of real friendship- seems to me incredibly important as a protective factor against burnout, the accumulation of stress, vicarious trauma, etc.

― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous)

i once worked at a place where the owner felt it was very important for us to be "family". unfortunately for everyone involved he did a very good job at implementing that environment.

Sorry don't understand? Thought original point - compliments don't have to be about looks or clothes - was worth making.

xposts: I agree LL that hair is often a dead-end, but noticing something like, let's say, someone's cool vintage shoes, old bike jersey, or interesting t-shirt can lead to stories about where they got the item, the "hunt" involved, maybe the event associated with it (music show/bike ride/race, etc). it can end up becoming a conversation about a lot more than just that piece of clothing.

La Lechera otm. SO many other things to talk about.

i once worked at a place where the owner felt it was very important for us to be "family". unfortunately for everyone involved he did a very good job at implementing that environment.

the "family" concept is problematic to say the least, but i stand by the idea that for some jobs, a straightforward and mostly impersonal "professional" environment is not enough to sustain those doing the front-line work, and to protect them from burnout.

1. It comes across as false modesty, “sorry if I’m staying the obvious” 2. It assumes people on this thread you aren’t following closely are being idiots 3. And yes, it was stated quite clearly in the precursor discussion to this thread - where you pulled pretty much the same thing.

Your hair looks great though, did you do something with it?

cool, keep enjoying your emotional hair-trigger

La Lechera otm x 1000

I guess one thing to avoid too is the not paying attention dad-style compliment, e.g. "I like what you've done with your hair" "Thanks for noticing dad, it's been like this for three years."

At the office that becomes your manager telling you you've done a great job (or whatever) or some piece of work, and you're left thinking "Yep, this is the same thing I've been doing for years, totally unrecognised, thanks for finally paying attention."

I kinda can't fathom addressing the appearance of a coworker I wasn't actively chummy with, aside from maybe like, 'hey, buddy, maybe you need to rethink that mesh shirt before the boss comes around, whaddaya say?'

ogmor otm basically

I am always being reminded that even amongst people I am close to there are a wide variety of often conflicting ideas about what normal/acceptable/good behaviour consists of, and there is no way that universal simple clear rules could operate other than to silence some people and tell them they're being oversensitive/not sensitive enough

― ogmor, Sunday, January 7, 2018 9:53 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is true, and I think regarding LL's story it's extremely important to trust the gut instinct that says something is being said in a way that is "off" or in a way that makes you uncomfortable.

My mom told a story about being at a nature preserve last year taking photos and she was alone, and a very "nice" seeming random middle aged guy offered to help her with her photos, since she was requiring some help in setting someone thing up. Why did he offer?? She wasn't sure. But it seemed innocuous. BUT she felt weirded out. She did let him help but she said she should have trusted her first instinct -- he started to get inexplicably testy when she was taking awhile to set something up. She took a moment to "go back to her car for something" and quickly drove off.

She's sure that guy was just an asshole but she said she was kicking herself for not splitting immediately.

I also remember a date I had where the woman suddenly shut down conversationally and shortly thereafter got up and left. She later emailed me and explained that I had used some turns of phrase that reminded me of an extremely bad ex. I forget what they were. I at first thought maybe it was her way out of a crappy date but I don't think so; I was kind of annoyed tbh but I look back and of. Purse it was her total right to be weirded out by anything. If you cross a line--even if you find the line to be one that is not commonly considered a line--you either have to reconsider how you should approach situations OR at the very least accept that you crossed someone's personal line and respect their decision and allow them their feeling.

Seems like we should calibrate our behavior for the 999 times that doesn't happen, not for the one time it does, maybe?

Because overwhelmingly, the stories of guys actually being creeps dramatically outnumber the stories of innocuous statements that someone, somewhere, once found creepy.

I’m not sure “stories” is the right noun there YMP

"of. Purse" should be "of course" not sure what the hell happened there...

xxp

yeah omar otm

i know this is a v common subject on twitter now & more common out in public than the workplace but i cannot stress this enough: dudes need to understand how quickly an innocuous situation can spiral into weird for women in the blink of an eye

an older man at the post office asked me to help him fill out a form because he had impaired vision from cataracts & so i said sure. (my old college tutor had similar issues & i knew how difficult fine print was)
so as i’m reading the form to him he moved very close & said in a low voice “my you sure are a beautiful young lady” and i quickly said “ok i have to leave now” and bolted

like maybe he was lonely and didnt have much contact with ppl or maybe the story was a ploy to stand close to women either way it’s scary & infuriating that straightforward situation A becomes wtf situation ! in like a fucking nanosecond in a seemingly safe public place surrounded by ppl

i hate it

if a stranger or someone i never have interacted with socially pays me a compliment i take it with the mindset of expecting the other shoe to drop. ie inevitable weird awkward uncomfortable followup
so am a) immediately suspicious and b) usually keep moving

because it happens ALL the time
all the time

if it’s someone you know that’s different but compliments for us, ie women, so often have a creepy awful catch out in the world

this happened when i was in my 20’s. i was sitting by a pool at a hotel dangling my feet in the water, in jeans & a tshirt

a guy was reading on a lounge chair & made conversation. all was fine, very innocuous.

after a while he got up to leave & said “i like that color red on you” & handed me a piece of paper with a 3 digit number on it.

i was not wearing anything red. except my underpants. which were showing slightly above the waistband of my jeans bcz i was sitting down.

the number was his room number.

i was so horrified & humiliated that i went back to my room and stayed there til i checked out the next day.

seriously who does that!? why would you do that

man that is gross. i can think of many situations that turned on a dime like that.

recently i was on the train on the way home (alone) from a musical performance on a sunday afternoon.
an older man in a red tracksuit struck up a conversation with me, and i was ok with it because 1) i enjoy talking to strangers 2) whatever who cares, no one else to talk to
we chatted about dogs, the weather, the performance i saw
i was careful not to tell him too much about myself, i did mention i am married. i was slowly edging away from this person.
he said "you look too young to be married, look at you -- you don't even need makeup"
and that's when i had to tell this old man "hey, that's not ok. you shouldn't make comments on a stranger's appearance or they will get the wrong idea"
he actually looked at me in the face and said "i'm a man, i have to try"
i said "no, actually you don't" and we talked a little more about dogs

but like this is a throwaway conversation with a random OLD MAN ON THE TRAIN

if you are still like "O NO how can i compliment my coworkers on their cute boots?!?!?!?!" i really wonder how genuine this concern is and how much you just want to sweat people to "hash out the rules"

I think these last two posts show why people have got to stfu in the workplace sometimes, there is too much fucked up male behaviour out there for any female to assume that you are a benign and lovely person who just really happens to like commenting on women's jumpers/coffee mugs/boots etc

i also wonder if certain guys think that flattery is how they have to initiate conversation with a woman, like a sort of gambit “she would never talk to me otherwise” kind of thing? like they’ve been taught this somewhere

it isn’t necessary!

sure if something genuinely catches your eye maybe but as a general way of interacting, talking about ~things out in the world~ is just fine

veg otm

what male co-workers think their hugs feel like vs. what they actually feel like pic.twitter.com/9FnsiS4qW7

— Audrey Porne (@AudreyPorne) January 6, 2018

I can't imagine never ever EVER talking or wanting to talk to a co-worker about their looks, and whenever another dude talks to me about a woman in this way (which is thankfully rare) I want to die

xpost lol truth

LL: ugh. So sad and sorry that happened/happens.

Still I think "no, actually you don't" is an A+ response

Jared Kushner at thirty-six prided himself on his ability to get along with older men.

uhh

If you cross a line--even if you find the line to be one that is not commonly considered a line--you either have to reconsider how you should approach situations OR at the very least accept that you crossed someone's personal line and respect their decision and allow them their feeling.

this may well be a failure of comprehension on my part, but I don't understand what "reconsider how you should approach situations" means here unless it's looking for more rules on how to interact with ppl, or more complex, more nuanced rules with more caveats and conditions?

(I mean, obv if someone tells you that they consider a specific thing you've done or said crossed a line and creeped them out that you should respect that and not do/say that thing again, but I think you're talking about how not to creep someone out in the first place?)

wrt to the gut instinct that someone is "off" or "weird" in some way that makes you uncomfortable - my fear is that I always come across as as off and weird and I don't know how to correct that - I spent years trying to learn the rules of how to talk to ppl, the set of rules I carried around in my head being added to and getting more and more unwieldy every time another attempt to interact with someone ended in disaster (NB I'm not only talking about interactions with women here, or where someone inferred that I was trying to proposition them in some way - I've never tried to chat someone up, and always avoid talking about ppl's appearance or anything that I think could be interpreted as sexually suggestive - but all failed interactions with men or women where they seem weirded out). But adding to the rules didn't work and I think now that it's maybe a dead end, it's a million little things, eye contact, body language, dress sense as much as what you actually say and I don't think I'll ever be able to get them all "right".

I'd read stuff by women where they imply that men breaking social rules/crossing lines, even wrt to apparently innocuous non-sexual stuff makes them feel unsafe, because if someone is willing to break *this* social rule then who knows what over rules they might break? I guess this is the gut instinct thing. If a woman feels creeped out by something I do or say, or by *me* more generally then I "allow them their feeling" as Omar says, I can't say that they're wrong to feel that way, but I don't know what the solution is, if not a better understanding of the rules? I've tried to remove myself from human interaction as much as possible over the last few years because it has always ended badly, if not creeping someone out then at least annoying them, or being taken advantage of by them. But I've met other ppl who are socially awkward and apparently unaware of it, or who at least persist in trying to talk to other ppl anyway, and the thought of being one of those people is horrifying to me, I don't think there's anything these ppl could do to improve themselves either, they are just fundamentally repulsive at some level?

I was struck by this thing that La Lechera said in the other thread about why she found the guy's comment on her hair objectionable

it struck me as memorable because of how scripted it felt, like it was from a reader's digest "list of things to say to women if you want to make a positive impression"

because whenever I would try to talk to someone (about anything, not specifically about their hair), particularly when consciously trying to follow these 'rules' so as not to be creepy, my speech would sound off-puttingly robotic and I got the impression that this in itself creeped ppl out - I don't know what the alternative is though, this stuff doesn't come naturally?

i'm very reticent to compliment a woman on her looks in the workplace, more likely to compliment them on their work ethic. only feel comfortable complimenting someone if i know them well and know that it's a genuine compliment, otherwise it feels cheap. knowing boundaries is key, sucks to hear there's so much toxic bullshit

To me the way I work with these things is that I start by understanding what is considered respectful/not respectful by someone and then communicate along those lines, it is how I operate with someone I would want as a friend, mentor, a potential partner, male/female, etc this is pretty much how I want to be treated to begin with. If you make a mistake, apologize and then don't do the mistake again. In the workplace (or at school!) there is going to be enough social situations that make you understand how a person wants to be treated. I guess what I'm saying is to apply as much empathy as possible at all times. Some people, male or female, love to get their looks complimented at work, some people, male or female, really dislike it (I dislike it), it is up to you to find out.

I have yet to meet anyone who loves to get their looks complimented at work.

Ross has hit the simplest answer above: "more likely to compliment them on their work ethic". Its been explained well above by VG, LL et al but really, we just want to do our work, and have people compliment and respect and notice *that*, like professionals?

Put yourself in our shoes lads and think how you'd feel if you were constantly commented on for your suit or shoes or hair, but never the awesome meeting agenda you worked overtime to come up with or the budget adjustment that will save the companies arse.

And yes sorry if you have to rehearse and recite a list and you know you sound "robotic", then yeah its going to come over as a little forced and weird. I wish I could come up with a solution there, Ive known guys on the spectrum.

Our office has a yearly "most cheerful staff member" award that always seems to go to a female member of staff. We complain about it every year and get the normal "buzzkill" and "you're overthinking it" responses.