how to make friends and influence ppl (without being a creep)

To be clear I'm otming the longer dmac post

Innocuous complements aside, the bigger question is, has anyone actually gotten in trouble for asking a coworker (not a subordinate) out on a date? That shows clear “intent” but can be done respectfully, especially if you don’t freak out if you get turned down. It seems that the cases we hear about in the news are neither innocuous complements nor benign first moves but lecherous advanced.

*advances

Some workplaces have a no dating policy, I guess, but not because it’s considered harassment. I guess I am skeptical about whether the definition of harassment has really expanded enough in practice to get people in trouble who don’t have the intent of putting women in uncomfortable positions.

(this is probably a multiple x-post)

i agree that intentions matter, but of course don't fully determine how you'll actually come across. human communication is way too complicated and context-laden to provide any guarantees that intention will always match reception.

i'd go a step further and add that the notion of 'ulterior motive' is itself complicated. it seems like the easy call is when the ulterior motive is quite clearly to end up having sex; or on the flip side, when the motive is an altruistic/platonic one (the 'brighten someone's day' impulse, maybe). things get more complicated and muddied in between, in several different ways.

so for example, the ulterior motive behind a lot of flirting doesn't equate to "let's spend the night together" because it's my sense that a lot of flirting occurs between people who know they'll never actually spend the night together (e.g., already have a partner), but who just enjoy sending each other these signals that "hey i think you're interesting & attractive in a kinda sexy way".

also, compliments are not either purely platonic or purely sexual in origin. I've found that I can be attracted to someone as a friend, initially in a non-romantic, non-sexual way, but that attraction became more sexually-tinged over time. Sometimes it feels like it happens overnight (literally, through a dream), and sometimes it happens gradually, almost imperceptibly, so that the compliment I give today feels, as soon as I've said it, quite different from the one I gave three months ago... and I'm surprised by this.

so it's complicated, and the stories post-Weinstein raise the stakes on one's ability to navigate these complications, but i must say: i don't share some guys' sense that, "oh no, everything's changed now... NOW how am I supposed to talk to women without risking X, Y or Z". like, yeah, these stories highlight why you should step more lightly, but speaking only for myself now...i feel like throughout my life i've been aware (and scared of) the possibility of creeping women out. i've tended to err on the side of waiting for a green light from the other, before initiating anything that could be construed as anything like a pass, not necessarily because i'm a paragon of virtue, but more because i've feared rejection (and ruined friendships).

totally.

i think the actual fear people have is not they will actually creep someone out -- you can avoid that by having decent intentions and reading signals -- but that some mean spirited person will twist around their words in order to hurt them. bad things could always happen but as far as fears go i don't think this one is all that likely.

or, on the flipside, they'll encounter someone who is just confused by this whole recent discourse and will sincerely misinterpret they're friendly comment as harassment, not because they actually are creeped out, but because they have some muddled ideas about what the rules are. i don't think this is likely either.

your hair looks great today btw

"Have you had a haircut" is about as far as I've ventured. Actually I said that recently to a woman I work with and she said, "That was weeks ago and you've only just noticed! Tchoh!"

Any time women complement my outfits I think it’s great and am happy for the rest of the day, even if I’m not attracted to them.

Also this has happened to me at work too recently, on a couple of occasions.

i don't compliment people on their physical appearance. if someone is wearing a pair of cute boots or whatever, i don't feel it's my place as a biological male to point that out - men aren't _supposed_ to notice such things. exception is haircuts. haircuts are fair game.

no way i am all about fashion

i mean, not "all about," but i am interested enough in it that i'll notice when someone is rocking a good look.

i don't think about stuff in terms of "my place as a biological male." i've always had a lot of female friends -- more, actually, than male friends. ("a lot" is relative, of course, i'm not hyper social.)

but yeah, idk. it might come as a surprise to ordinary readers of ilx but i'm not really one of these gruff, masculine, can't-tell-black-from-navy type of dudes.

"men aren't _supposed_ to notice such things."

idk what "supposed" is doing here but it's a bad sentiment and accession to it is drawing the line in the wrong place

i remarked to my (male) boss the other day that he'd had a haircut and he paused, looked at me, and said "yeah. i get one every so often." awkward

you should have said; it's took ten years of you, pal. You only look 90 now.

Haircut chat is unisex, "Are you trying to grow a beard" isn't.

once someone asked me how many plaid shirts i had

i said, "a lot."

once I wore a plaid shirt
and it was a gas
soon turned out
to be a pain in the ass

I've never had a compliment of (or simple acknowledgement of) a haircut or a jumper or shoes or w/e rebound on me tbh but I don't throw them out to just anyone neither.

I think the Irish office environment, although not without its left/sj scene and crew, is to my experience reasonably relaxed on these things though. NB I'm old NB I'm a civil servant.

Being single and fancying someone at work I've no idea how badly I'd handle things if I'm completely honest.

frankly i find it hard enough turning up and concentrating on my job without throwing other stuff into the mix. altho otoh i am friends with a bunch of people at work and our area is mostly women and we do social things sometimes like coffee/movies/walks/piss-ups but sometimes when we're doing stuff like that people will still say "i just come to work to work" and it's still sort of true even tho are doing something else, think we're just generally chill and friendly people.

the clothes compliment thing is partly about how, through tone and expression, you pitch the compliment. scenario A: female co-worker walks in wearing "cute" new boots. dude goes: "i...really....like... how those boots look on you..." (*checking out legs up and down*). VERDICT: HARASSMENT. scenario B: female co-worker walks in wearing "cute" new boots. dude goes: "whoa, those boots rock!." VERDICT: STYLE-SOLIDARITY AT BEST, DOUCHEY "COOLSPEAK" AT WORST.

it's not that pat and dry, but it's not complete terra incognita either.

I mean the female is almost an unnecessary modifier there

years ago a male coworker complimented my haircut, and followed it up by saying “i used to be overweight and i know that people paying me compliments on how i looked when i made an effort always made me feel good”

he’s a very sweet guy and his intentions were pure of heart but boy that explanation really took the wind out of my sails

idk what "supposed" is doing here but it's a bad sentiment and accession to it is drawing the line in the wrong place

― remember the lmao (darraghmac)

the "supposed" is that i've always gathered that there's a certain expectation (frequently justified) of male cluelessness. when i look good coworkers will compliment my wife, because men, particularly married men, aren't supposed to be able to dress themselves.

wow. that one is something else. xpost

i remarked to my (male) boss the other day that he'd had a haircut and he paused, looked at me, and said "yeah. i get one every so often." awkward

This is one of those moments when the person who's addressing you just throws out a totally bland observational statement and then expects you to pick up the conversational slack. I used to work with someone who would do this multiple times a day, just saying things like "lunchtime, eh?" while looking at you expectantly.

Re: the original question, it shouldn't be that difficult to make a simple compliment without coming across as a creep. "Cool hair by the way" in front of a group of other people is one thing, "I like your hair" while staring intently at them across a meeting room is a different thing entirely.

I mean the female is almost an unnecessary modifier there

good point.

xp to rushomancy I get that, def, but I disagree that it changes how a guy should behave

It's nice to compliment ppl and it's nice to notice when things are nice and if you do notice then an internal filter should be more thoughtful imo than "I'm not meant to notice these things I'll say nothing"

are any of yall actually getting laid behind any of these compliments

seems like the efficacy of complimenation is, by assumption, way overrated itt

HEY NICE CANS LADY

'your fabric choices are divine'

<furious smooching>

I think the premise of this thread is pretty obviously about a sincere compliment without an ulterior motive.

well then what's the mystery

ooh cute shoes

there, voila

I used a Denzel Washington line from training day actually during a putative romantic liaison the last day and almost needless to say it ended things immediately so it ain't what you say it's the way that you say it and uh whether or not you are Denzel

or whether the other person watched the same movie

If complimenting co-workers feels like really uncertain territory to you, try practicing by complimenting them on their work, or their desk decorations, or something that is not attached to their body. Once you feel more relaxed in those waters and see how that kind of remark is received, then you might try a scarf or hair compliment.

"i like your mug"

when i look good coworkers will compliment my wife, because men, particularly married men, aren't supposed to be able to dress themselves.

― bob lefse (rushomancy), Sunday, January 7, 2018 3:58 PM (one hour ago)

?!?!?!?!

Does Rushomancy live in the 1950s?

"You look great for a change, who dressed you?"

shit

I'm pretty sure I've gotten that since Christmas

Herself bought me clothes for Christmas

Shit

I really can't remember ever needing to make a personal-appearance compliment to a woman in the workplace. I have just always found something else to talk about. Work, the weather, current events, music, TV, movies, kids, books, pets, sports, restaurants, coffee. I'd probably have to exhaust that list - and quite a bit more - before the only thing I could say would be "your hair looks nice" or w/ev.

One time I told a woman that I thought her (rainbow-swirl) eyeglass frames were a bold choice, and funky in a good way (we'd already been talking about glasses; she'd just complimented mine). Another time I told a gay coworker that I liked his tattoo, and showed him mine. Both of these were in after-work happy-hour situations, where we all knew each other well and everybody's partnership/marital status was well-established. Otherwise I've just always found other things to talk about.

That said, 23 of my 25 years of work have been for small women-owned businesses. This encompasses some fairly heavily female professions (health care, PR, pro-environment nonprofits). And compliments between women have been commonplace ("I like those boots!" "Nice skirt!"). I have been complimented myself, and I always just take it as nice banter, but I have no problem with it being basically a one-way street most of the time.

"i like your mug"

"Keep calm and carry on, eh? Aheheh."

i think the actual fear people have is not they will actually creep someone out -- you can avoid that by having decent intentions and reading signals -- but that some mean spirited person will twist around their words in order to hurt them.

idk about anyone else, but I'd say that I fear both? "you can avoid that by having decent intentions and reading signals" feels like missing the point, if you're sincerely worried and confused about this stuff (rather than just using it as an excuse) it's probably because you *can't* read signals?

Re: the original question, it shouldn't be that difficult to make a simple compliment without coming across as a creep.

but it is for some people, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist!

NB I don't think I've ever commented on a co-worker's clothes/hair/etc, partially for fear of creeping them out, partially because I know that I always feel embarrassed and uncomfortable if someone mentions my appearance, regardless of apparent motive or how complimentary they were being (I don't want to give the impression that I'm constantly providing a running commentary on other people's appearance)

When someone (usually a much-older woman) has remarked on my appearance (hair, glasses, tie, suit, whatever) - I'm not creeped out. I don't think she's trying to get into bed with me. But I do get a trifle self-conscious, similar to what soref intimates.

Workplace cultures clearly vary a lot, and different people approach them with different attitudes. But generally, when I go to work I go to work. My objective is to get through it guickly, so I can get home to my wife and children and my beer-fridge and my guitars.

I try to be pleasant and personable, but for me it's not really a place where I need to make friends (let alone flirt or look for dates). Liking someone's boots or tie or haircut is obviously fine as water-cooler chit-chat for some folks, but to me it's just a distraction.

Maybe some people approach work differently because it's become their main social outlet? Perhaps because they have relatively few meatspace friends outside work? Perhaps because modern work styles just occupy so much of their day/week that they can't bear it not being social? I don't know.

ive never had an issue with this. in a professional environment i may act a little more personable at times but i only say something if i actually mean it. so if my boss has a paisley top on i will say "Wow cool paisley" or something. same with if someone gets a haircut, if it's somebody you see every day anyways, nothing wrong with saying "Oh nice haircut" just don't be a creep about it

modern work styles just occupy so much of their day/week that they can't bear it not being social?

this is interesting cos modern work styles both have that social aspect to them (being on social networks, attending office events, cornhole tosses, etc.) and with flex-time you have people telecommuting more and more. it's kind of a weird mix.

rule #1 is don’t toss your colleagues’ cornholes imo

tbh the reason i am participating in this thread is because i was shocked to find my out-of-context hair anecdote being discussed in the weinstein thread as some sort of example of oversensitivity and it pissed me off

all the buts in the world aren't going to give you permission to shower anyone with unwanted attention
just stop it and the problem is solved; accept that you may make people uncomfortable if you continue to show them unwanted attention

which is what several women have already expressed, repeatedly, in this thread. and yet it still drags on...

LOL welcome to being a woman every day, LBI :/ This is why we are fed up with the emotional work. "Help us out here!" *offers help* "no, you arent listening, help us OUT here dammit"

Urgh.

Can't remember ever feeling it so clearly and on the nose - you just being ignored and having the same thing come up like groundhog day - on here before like on this thread, yeah :-/

It's almost like the men who make excuses about why catcalling random women on the street is acceptable.

Will this board ever again (if it ever did) change one person's mind about anything or will it be an unending story of ppl- on every side of every issue- deciding any given thread only exists for them to impart their perfect wisdom to idiots and subsequently frustratedly describe any discussion that does not follow whatever narrative was prior anointed in advance as these idiots not. getting. it.

I don't believe this thread was ever an advice thread fwiw. Or at least not just that, perhaps. Certainly not at the expense of discussion. I don't believe that anyone signed up to dutifully receive a set curriculum from a set few sources of defined and agreed authority, as if there is the right answer out there to mark against.

speaking of dissent, disagreement, diversion as if it is a case of naughty children veering from a lecture that anyone here was asked to come in and give is a bizarre impulse imo.

And tbh it is also a misrepresentation of this thread to label it as a single discussion with one outcome of one strong trend of agreement. You could focus on any one of ten different viewpoints given, some more strongly generally agreed with and some less so. Choosing to set out a stall of opposition against whichever best suits your agenda as if it were a consensus or representative of the entire thread is just strawman stuff.

If there's a 'thread opinion' it seems to be 'dont flirt at work. Don't comment on personal appearance of you have no relationship that has established it's ok that you do this'.

If a few ppl are either objecting or delving further into boundaries here then imo that's valid to do so without them becoming facsimiles for every overstepped boundary that can be recalled and recounted.

Thread 100000000

Booming

Yes. And humbling, as a deems does. I for one shan't be in the way of any discussion (except any opinion tryna move the 'don't flirt at work' goalposts obv).

Dude yesterday you said that the mildly contrarian opinions expressed in this thread made you want human civilization to end

Yesterday you were treeship #1 and wanted to bruteforce an ilx-quit and failed miserably and here you are again, "dude".

Still stand by my desire for the end of human civilization (it's easy if we try), but I'm perfectly ok with saying (and meaning) Deems has a valid point. Which takes nothing away from what I've expressed on here earlier, rather - hopefully - opens the way to a better conversation, instead of perpetually hitting the same wall.

Why would you hope for the end of civilization? Ya no thanks to that nihilist racket

And I say that as someone who likes your posts LBI

tbh without the rule of law things may be even worse

Wasn't entirely serious, Ross, though a chunk of it every now and then, yes (I don't like it either). I just hope this conversation can move forward, finally. Being called upon yesterdays posts is a game I don't like playing. What I said earlier doesn't even contradict what I said tonight, as treezy will have ye believe, but I do appreciate Deems' sincere effort to push things forward, and support that. 'Cause there's no other way than that, forward. (for civilization also tbh)

cheers!!

Catherine Deneuve is Sanpaku

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/09/catherine-deneuve-men-should-be-free-hit-on-women-harvey-weinstein-scandal

“As women we do not recognise ourselves in this feminism, which beyond denouncing the abuse of power takes on a hatred of men and of sexuality.”

They insisted that women were “sufficiently aware that the sexual urge is by its nature wild and aggressive. But we are also clear-eyed enough not to confuse an awkward attempt to pick someone up with a sexual attack.”

from another AFP article:

Some women who were strong enough to demand equal pay, it claimed, would "not be traumatised forever by a fondler on the metro", even if it is a crime, preferring to see it as a "non-event".

c’mon we’re all learning day by day and I don’t think knocking S down is going to fix anything

yeah sorry it's unfair to Sanpaku, Deneuve is a truly horrible person.

Really, I was just wondering aloud whether we really wanted a world were everyone was like me. Not bothering with social engagement IRL because a wide variety of reasons, but including the risk of embarassment or inadvertently offending others. We see a further of countries further along this path than the U.S. Everyone around me is a total stranger
Everyone avoids me like a psyched lone-ranger Everyone.

fuck it.. a further of a few

I don't think this is a necessary end for society. I wouldn't be surprised if it might require some acceptance of embarassing self-revelations in everyday life, some which verge into flirtation.

all engagement with others is a cycle of embarrassment and small offenses, but the point is you learn how to err in small ways and react. life without any failure is complete inaction imo

This is right on point <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/examples-of-toxic-femininity-in-the-workplace";>

"Lisa comes in for an interview. All the interviewers judge her objectively, based on her qualifications and the candor of her responses. This leaves her so confused that, on the way out of the office, she accidentally walks into traffic and dies."

Arg it's too early. https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/examples-of-toxic-femininity-in-the-workplace

Love the idea this board was ever about changing the minds of ppl. If anything it was so we could pass away the boring hours (when we were not being harassed by having to do work) by dumping any grey matter in our brains on unsuspecting strangers.

#workIsWork

Jessica begins speaking, and no one speaks over her. She didn’t actually have an ending to her presentation prepared, because she expected to be interrupted. She is mortified.

It me - I've been in this situation a few times, more in conversation than in a presentation context. Remember thinking what a decent guy he is.

this is really good

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/opinion/aziz-ansari-metoo-sex.html

yeah I love Lindy

yeah, strong essay