how to make friends and influence ppl (without being a creep)

k i've just been and checked, my hair's maybe the least ravaged bit of me so fair enough

yr welcome

It's very good imo

It's literally like a wave or "vague" on ur noodle, was that the intention

anyway, before i take my imminent meltdown to my own meltdown thread i gotta say i do understand Sanpaku's wish for the unspoken rules of social interaction tobe made more explicit but i think to some extent this is already happening and it's a long-term evolutionary process within different societies. the desire to apply coding logic to social interaction seems unrealistic at best, and although i'm absolutely sure that he was being sincere in what he said it might be seen by some people as the kind of "tell me what i did wrong?" tactic that actually abusive men have been using to try and obfuscate their own actions, even tho i'm sure in their heart of hearts most of those people know that they've done wrong. i'm absolutely not accusing Sanpaku of this, but i think that's how his posts could be construed and why people have responded badly to them.

ftr I think sanpakus insistence that there be a hard line or set of rules is lamentable (I mean that in a sympathetic sense) and if the realisation isn't in each and every man out there by now that you're not going to get that, you've to do the hard (in fact the soft) work yourself in every interaction and for every person you are dealing with then that's on you.

That's the bedrock imo. And from the other thread and the posts in it going back since this started to break, the #1 if you need a list is that your motive matters- whether it's obvious to the other person or not. Start internally and work outwards and if all you are generally trying to do in your day is spread joy and happiness without ulterior designs on those you come into contact with then the odds of your doing harm (and coming across as a creep) are less than any other approach you take.

Any time women complement my outfits I think it’s great and am happy for the rest of the day, even if I’m not attracted to them.

If someone has new glasses, a new haircut or some bold accessory I’ll usually tell them it looks nice.

If I get fired for living my life in this brave and bold way so be it.

wow

Dude

I kinda feel like I'm breaking character here but cmon man

^otm (xp)

& like contra the panic that started this thread I think if you start out with those best intentions pretty much the worst-case scenario is you pay a compliment, are told that it isn't appropriate, and you apologise - I think if you really are erring in the side of not being a creep you don't have to worry that they're coming for you. It's funny that the, uh let's just say concern-posting in the Weinstein thread takes the franken and bush egs as the slippery slope - for the record I would definitely advise that you do not do anything like what those guys did in your workplace

To be clear I'm otming the longer dmac post

Innocuous complements aside, the bigger question is, has anyone actually gotten in trouble for asking a coworker (not a subordinate) out on a date? That shows clear “intent” but can be done respectfully, especially if you don’t freak out if you get turned down. It seems that the cases we hear about in the news are neither innocuous complements nor benign first moves but lecherous advanced.

*advances

Some workplaces have a no dating policy, I guess, but not because it’s considered harassment. I guess I am skeptical about whether the definition of harassment has really expanded enough in practice to get people in trouble who don’t have the intent of putting women in uncomfortable positions.

(this is probably a multiple x-post)

i agree that intentions matter, but of course don't fully determine how you'll actually come across. human communication is way too complicated and context-laden to provide any guarantees that intention will always match reception.

i'd go a step further and add that the notion of 'ulterior motive' is itself complicated. it seems like the easy call is when the ulterior motive is quite clearly to end up having sex; or on the flip side, when the motive is an altruistic/platonic one (the 'brighten someone's day' impulse, maybe). things get more complicated and muddied in between, in several different ways.

so for example, the ulterior motive behind a lot of flirting doesn't equate to "let's spend the night together" because it's my sense that a lot of flirting occurs between people who know they'll never actually spend the night together (e.g., already have a partner), but who just enjoy sending each other these signals that "hey i think you're interesting & attractive in a kinda sexy way".

also, compliments are not either purely platonic or purely sexual in origin. I've found that I can be attracted to someone as a friend, initially in a non-romantic, non-sexual way, but that attraction became more sexually-tinged over time. Sometimes it feels like it happens overnight (literally, through a dream), and sometimes it happens gradually, almost imperceptibly, so that the compliment I give today feels, as soon as I've said it, quite different from the one I gave three months ago... and I'm surprised by this.

so it's complicated, and the stories post-Weinstein raise the stakes on one's ability to navigate these complications, but i must say: i don't share some guys' sense that, "oh no, everything's changed now... NOW how am I supposed to talk to women without risking X, Y or Z". like, yeah, these stories highlight why you should step more lightly, but speaking only for myself now...i feel like throughout my life i've been aware (and scared of) the possibility of creeping women out. i've tended to err on the side of waiting for a green light from the other, before initiating anything that could be construed as anything like a pass, not necessarily because i'm a paragon of virtue, but more because i've feared rejection (and ruined friendships).

totally.

i think the actual fear people have is not they will actually creep someone out -- you can avoid that by having decent intentions and reading signals -- but that some mean spirited person will twist around their words in order to hurt them. bad things could always happen but as far as fears go i don't think this one is all that likely.

or, on the flipside, they'll encounter someone who is just confused by this whole recent discourse and will sincerely misinterpret they're friendly comment as harassment, not because they actually are creeped out, but because they have some muddled ideas about what the rules are. i don't think this is likely either.

your hair looks great today btw

"Have you had a haircut" is about as far as I've ventured. Actually I said that recently to a woman I work with and she said, "That was weeks ago and you've only just noticed! Tchoh!"

Any time women complement my outfits I think it’s great and am happy for the rest of the day, even if I’m not attracted to them.

Also this has happened to me at work too recently, on a couple of occasions.

i don't compliment people on their physical appearance. if someone is wearing a pair of cute boots or whatever, i don't feel it's my place as a biological male to point that out - men aren't _supposed_ to notice such things. exception is haircuts. haircuts are fair game.

no way i am all about fashion

i mean, not "all about," but i am interested enough in it that i'll notice when someone is rocking a good look.

i don't think about stuff in terms of "my place as a biological male." i've always had a lot of female friends -- more, actually, than male friends. ("a lot" is relative, of course, i'm not hyper social.)

but yeah, idk. it might come as a surprise to ordinary readers of ilx but i'm not really one of these gruff, masculine, can't-tell-black-from-navy type of dudes.

"men aren't _supposed_ to notice such things."

idk what "supposed" is doing here but it's a bad sentiment and accession to it is drawing the line in the wrong place

i remarked to my (male) boss the other day that he'd had a haircut and he paused, looked at me, and said "yeah. i get one every so often." awkward

you should have said; it's took ten years of you, pal. You only look 90 now.

Haircut chat is unisex, "Are you trying to grow a beard" isn't.

once someone asked me how many plaid shirts i had

i said, "a lot."

once I wore a plaid shirt
and it was a gas
soon turned out
to be a pain in the ass

I've never had a compliment of (or simple acknowledgement of) a haircut or a jumper or shoes or w/e rebound on me tbh but I don't throw them out to just anyone neither.

I think the Irish office environment, although not without its left/sj scene and crew, is to my experience reasonably relaxed on these things though. NB I'm old NB I'm a civil servant.

Being single and fancying someone at work I've no idea how badly I'd handle things if I'm completely honest.

frankly i find it hard enough turning up and concentrating on my job without throwing other stuff into the mix. altho otoh i am friends with a bunch of people at work and our area is mostly women and we do social things sometimes like coffee/movies/walks/piss-ups but sometimes when we're doing stuff like that people will still say "i just come to work to work" and it's still sort of true even tho are doing something else, think we're just generally chill and friendly people.

the clothes compliment thing is partly about how, through tone and expression, you pitch the compliment. scenario A: female co-worker walks in wearing "cute" new boots. dude goes: "i...really....like... how those boots look on you..." (*checking out legs up and down*). VERDICT: HARASSMENT. scenario B: female co-worker walks in wearing "cute" new boots. dude goes: "whoa, those boots rock!." VERDICT: STYLE-SOLIDARITY AT BEST, DOUCHEY "COOLSPEAK" AT WORST.

it's not that pat and dry, but it's not complete terra incognita either.

I mean the female is almost an unnecessary modifier there

years ago a male coworker complimented my haircut, and followed it up by saying “i used to be overweight and i know that people paying me compliments on how i looked when i made an effort always made me feel good”

he’s a very sweet guy and his intentions were pure of heart but boy that explanation really took the wind out of my sails

idk what "supposed" is doing here but it's a bad sentiment and accession to it is drawing the line in the wrong place

― remember the lmao (darraghmac)

the "supposed" is that i've always gathered that there's a certain expectation (frequently justified) of male cluelessness. when i look good coworkers will compliment my wife, because men, particularly married men, aren't supposed to be able to dress themselves.

wow. that one is something else. xpost

i remarked to my (male) boss the other day that he'd had a haircut and he paused, looked at me, and said "yeah. i get one every so often." awkward

This is one of those moments when the person who's addressing you just throws out a totally bland observational statement and then expects you to pick up the conversational slack. I used to work with someone who would do this multiple times a day, just saying things like "lunchtime, eh?" while looking at you expectantly.

Re: the original question, it shouldn't be that difficult to make a simple compliment without coming across as a creep. "Cool hair by the way" in front of a group of other people is one thing, "I like your hair" while staring intently at them across a meeting room is a different thing entirely.

I mean the female is almost an unnecessary modifier there

good point.

xp to rushomancy I get that, def, but I disagree that it changes how a guy should behave

It's nice to compliment ppl and it's nice to notice when things are nice and if you do notice then an internal filter should be more thoughtful imo than "I'm not meant to notice these things I'll say nothing"

are any of yall actually getting laid behind any of these compliments

seems like the efficacy of complimenation is, by assumption, way overrated itt

HEY NICE CANS LADY

'your fabric choices are divine'

<furious smooching>

I think the premise of this thread is pretty obviously about a sincere compliment without an ulterior motive.

well then what's the mystery

ooh cute shoes

there, voila

I used a Denzel Washington line from training day actually during a putative romantic liaison the last day and almost needless to say it ended things immediately so it ain't what you say it's the way that you say it and uh whether or not you are Denzel

or whether the other person watched the same movie

If complimenting co-workers feels like really uncertain territory to you, try practicing by complimenting them on their work, or their desk decorations, or something that is not attached to their body. Once you feel more relaxed in those waters and see how that kind of remark is received, then you might try a scarf or hair compliment.

"i like your mug"

when i look good coworkers will compliment my wife, because men, particularly married men, aren't supposed to be able to dress themselves.

― bob lefse (rushomancy), Sunday, January 7, 2018 3:58 PM (one hour ago)

?!?!?!?!

I find it difficult to square the argument that this is all very straightforward and anyone who claims to be confused is just disingenuously looking to excuse bad behavior with the argument that there can never be clear rules about what is an isn't acceptable because it's all very complex and subjective, don't these contradict each other?

it's extremely straightforward: unless you have a personal rapport with a coworker, don't comment on their physical appearance in any way. and if you do, keep it professional.

^^ which is what several women have already expressed, repeatedly, in this thread. and yet it still drags on...

xp I agree with that, but the conversation itt seemed to be broader than "should you comment on a co-worker's appearance y/n", if it was just that then yes we probably could have sorted it by now (but still, y'know, who gets to define what a "rapport" is, who gets to define what is and isn't professional? that seems pretty circular)

"don't comment on a co-worker's appearance, at all" seems a-ok a rule to live by, but "unless you have a personal rapport with a coworker, don't comment on their physical appearance in any way. and if you do, keep it professional" is basically "it's inappropriate except in situations where it's appropriate" which isn't much help?

Performing your resolution of this stuff such that whatever outlook you have personally found to be the gospel truth has to be completely and repeatedly vindicated and vocally supported by all at the risk of a bout of evermore ridiculous ilx shaming is the worst trend

It's bad.

Perhaps it just spun off too forced and aggro from the Weinstein thread, ie. got off on the wrong foot, even though it's worth of discussion on its own. I know the thread title changed but my bookmarks seem not to care and make it about Sanpaku every single time thread's updated. Doesn't help.

But I don't see a broader conversation at all any more. I just see people - men - rehashing their 'but' over everything that's being said. Stuff like this: "who gets to define what a "rapport" is, who gets to define what is and isn't professional? that seems pretty circular". Or this: ""don't comment on a co-worker's appearance, at all" seems a-ok a rule to live by, but"

Who gets to define what a rapport is? Who came up with the word trees for trees? What is time? Seems pretty circular to me... "But" indeed. As long as people keep talking and not listening, everything is circular in the end, rendering it all meaningless. Good luck with that newfound wisdom. The women on this thread have said so many true, real things that keep getting buried under "but", "yes but what about" shit.

*removes bookmark*

if you're comfortable asking about their kids, whether they mowed the lawn this weekend, etc. then you might be cool with a compliment. if you don't partake in small talk, you have no rapport. and that stuff is part of defining how much of the non-work world you're comfortable with sharing, and how much you're comfortable hearing about. it's not circular, it's a process, and it's nuanced -- if you can't distinguish between someone who cares about your response and someone who's just being polite, then you need to examine that

and by keep it professional, I mean -- if it's the middle of a meeting and you're not partaking in small talk, don't transition from talking about sales quotas to "whoa cool tie you're wearing"

"don't comment on a co-worker's appearance, at all" seems a-ok a rule to live by, but"

just to be clear, what I meant by this is that erring on the side of caution and taking a policy of never talking about a co-worker's appearance 100% of the time is a good idea imo, it's what I do myself, it's what I would recommend others do if they asked me. But if someone starts outlining the situations in which it *is* ok, it seems fair to say if you think that their outlines are actually indistinct, especially if they are insisting it's all v straightforward and you're lying or not listening if you claim otherwise?

I think one of the main problems with the "whoa how can I understand the rules if everything is so vague" argument is that it plays to the idea that a rigid structure of rules is possible. Even if it were, no set of rules is all-encompassing. It's all about context, interpretation, and the ability to communicate freely. If you really think this is all circular, welcome to the world! Communication isn't something you arrive at, it's an ongoing process and ever-changing.

If you don't want to keep track of what kind of communication is appropriate, and don't want to cooperate with other humans to figured it out, then give yourself a more stringent set of boundaries

tbh the reason i am participating in this thread is because i was shocked to find my out-of-context hair anecdote being discussed in the weinstein thread as some sort of example of oversensitivity and it pissed me off

all the buts in the world aren't going to give you permission to shower anyone with unwanted attention
just stop it and the problem is solved; accept that you may make people uncomfortable if you continue to show them unwanted attention

which is what several women have already expressed, repeatedly, in this thread. and yet it still drags on...

LOL welcome to being a woman every day, LBI :/ This is why we are fed up with the emotional work. "Help us out here!" *offers help* "no, you arent listening, help us OUT here dammit"

Urgh.

Can't remember ever feeling it so clearly and on the nose - you just being ignored and having the same thing come up like groundhog day - on here before like on this thread, yeah :-/

It's almost like the men who make excuses about why catcalling random women on the street is acceptable.

Will this board ever again (if it ever did) change one person's mind about anything or will it be an unending story of ppl- on every side of every issue- deciding any given thread only exists for them to impart their perfect wisdom to idiots and subsequently frustratedly describe any discussion that does not follow whatever narrative was prior anointed in advance as these idiots not. getting. it.

I don't believe this thread was ever an advice thread fwiw. Or at least not just that, perhaps. Certainly not at the expense of discussion. I don't believe that anyone signed up to dutifully receive a set curriculum from a set few sources of defined and agreed authority, as if there is the right answer out there to mark against.

speaking of dissent, disagreement, diversion as if it is a case of naughty children veering from a lecture that anyone here was asked to come in and give is a bizarre impulse imo.

And tbh it is also a misrepresentation of this thread to label it as a single discussion with one outcome of one strong trend of agreement. You could focus on any one of ten different viewpoints given, some more strongly generally agreed with and some less so. Choosing to set out a stall of opposition against whichever best suits your agenda as if it were a consensus or representative of the entire thread is just strawman stuff.

If there's a 'thread opinion' it seems to be 'dont flirt at work. Don't comment on personal appearance of you have no relationship that has established it's ok that you do this'.

If a few ppl are either objecting or delving further into boundaries here then imo that's valid to do so without them becoming facsimiles for every overstepped boundary that can be recalled and recounted.

Thread 100000000

Booming

Yes. And humbling, as a deems does. I for one shan't be in the way of any discussion (except any opinion tryna move the 'don't flirt at work' goalposts obv).

Dude yesterday you said that the mildly contrarian opinions expressed in this thread made you want human civilization to end

Yesterday you were treeship #1 and wanted to bruteforce an ilx-quit and failed miserably and here you are again, "dude".

Still stand by my desire for the end of human civilization (it's easy if we try), but I'm perfectly ok with saying (and meaning) Deems has a valid point. Which takes nothing away from what I've expressed on here earlier, rather - hopefully - opens the way to a better conversation, instead of perpetually hitting the same wall.

Why would you hope for the end of civilization? Ya no thanks to that nihilist racket

And I say that as someone who likes your posts LBI

tbh without the rule of law things may be even worse

Wasn't entirely serious, Ross, though a chunk of it every now and then, yes (I don't like it either). I just hope this conversation can move forward, finally. Being called upon yesterdays posts is a game I don't like playing. What I said earlier doesn't even contradict what I said tonight, as treezy will have ye believe, but I do appreciate Deems' sincere effort to push things forward, and support that. 'Cause there's no other way than that, forward. (for civilization also tbh)

cheers!!

Catherine Deneuve is Sanpaku

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/09/catherine-deneuve-men-should-be-free-hit-on-women-harvey-weinstein-scandal

“As women we do not recognise ourselves in this feminism, which beyond denouncing the abuse of power takes on a hatred of men and of sexuality.”

They insisted that women were “sufficiently aware that the sexual urge is by its nature wild and aggressive. But we are also clear-eyed enough not to confuse an awkward attempt to pick someone up with a sexual attack.”

from another AFP article:

Some women who were strong enough to demand equal pay, it claimed, would "not be traumatised forever by a fondler on the metro", even if it is a crime, preferring to see it as a "non-event".

c’mon we’re all learning day by day and I don’t think knocking S down is going to fix anything

yeah sorry it's unfair to Sanpaku, Deneuve is a truly horrible person.

Really, I was just wondering aloud whether we really wanted a world were everyone was like me. Not bothering with social engagement IRL because a wide variety of reasons, but including the risk of embarassment or inadvertently offending others. We see a further of countries further along this path than the U.S. Everyone around me is a total stranger
Everyone avoids me like a psyched lone-ranger Everyone.

fuck it.. a further of a few

I don't think this is a necessary end for society. I wouldn't be surprised if it might require some acceptance of embarassing self-revelations in everyday life, some which verge into flirtation.

all engagement with others is a cycle of embarrassment and small offenses, but the point is you learn how to err in small ways and react. life without any failure is complete inaction imo

This is right on point <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/examples-of-toxic-femininity-in-the-workplace";>

"Lisa comes in for an interview. All the interviewers judge her objectively, based on her qualifications and the candor of her responses. This leaves her so confused that, on the way out of the office, she accidentally walks into traffic and dies."

Arg it's too early. https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/examples-of-toxic-femininity-in-the-workplace

Love the idea this board was ever about changing the minds of ppl. If anything it was so we could pass away the boring hours (when we were not being harassed by having to do work) by dumping any grey matter in our brains on unsuspecting strangers.

#workIsWork

Jessica begins speaking, and no one speaks over her. She didn’t actually have an ending to her presentation prepared, because she expected to be interrupted. She is mortified.

It me - I've been in this situation a few times, more in conversation than in a presentation context. Remember thinking what a decent guy he is.

this is really good

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/opinion/aziz-ansari-metoo-sex.html

yeah I love Lindy

yeah, strong essay