expectations by EU countries, unrealistic or otherwise, are not the core issue imo. mass emigration from poor unstable countries into wealthier more stable countries will continue beyond the effective control of governments, because desperate people will risk the chance of death to escape certain misery.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 11 December 2017 20:09 (six years ago) link
Mass migration toward its northern coast will continue to be a reality of the 21st century whether or not it is convenient for Europe. Global attempts at containment are not only inhumane, but insufficient: People will always fight to survive. Western countries can't ask them to find a quieter place to die, even though the measures they've taken over the past decade have amounted to just that. This includes the E.U. paying Turkey €3 billion to ensure that Syrians and other refugees never make it to Greece, the U.S. paying Mexico to ensure that children fleeing the gangs of Central America's Northern Triangle never make it to America, Israel building its southern border fence to keep Eritrean and Sudanese asylum seekers out, and Australia maintaining numerous, horrific offshore detention centers such as those on Manus and Nauru. The list goes on.
The belief that these barbarous exercises in inhospitality will serve as effective deterrents has proven false. The destination might change, but nothing will stop migration, because nothing will stop those who know their lives are threatened from seeking refuge elsewhere.
maybe i'm misreading but this certainly sounds to me like an attempt to shame first world western countries for not accepting desperate migrants. expectations are the core issue bc this is written for westerns and it is attempting to convince them of something and i think we know what that something is.
― Mordy, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:12 (six years ago) link
While inhumane, genocide is an effective deterrent. As the bottleneck century progresses and the number of overpopulation/conflict/climate refugees grows, Europeans and North Americans will support nationalists in the Maghreb, Turkey and Mexico as bulwarks against the human tide. Its just the reality of lifeboat ethics.
― Sanpaku, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:29 (six years ago) link
There are several elements in your response that need to be teased apart.
sounds to me like an attempt to shame first world western countries for not accepting desperate migrants
and?
if one accepts that compassion and charity are the appropriate responses to desperate and miserable humans, and that morality enjoins those with excess resources to use them to mitigate that misery, then the first question becomes whether or not that moral standard is being met. if one believes it isn't being met, then what is to be done next?
if you lack the power to change the situation unilaterally, then you must persuade others to see the situation as you do. if one sees this in moral terms, then defining your point of view as the moral high ground is one obvious way to approach the task of persuasion. you can call it shaming if you wish, but you seem to be implying that using shame as a tool is wrong or underhanded, iow you seem to be using a sort of shaming, too.
i think we know what that something is
why use circumlocution here? just blurt it out and we can all decide if we know what "that something" is.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 11 December 2017 20:35 (six years ago) link
and presumably as it increases and becomes increasingly dire western countries will be pressured by unprecedented efforts to open their borders for more migration. ppl who oppose this will be labeled bigots and murderers for their complicity in the deaths of these refugees. it will be very hard for western countries who consider compassion to be a core value to say no to photographs of dead children. if the left becomes seen by its polity as untrustworthy in keeping the borders closed nations will choose more right-wing governments to do so on their behalf. xenophobia, nationalism, etc will increase. xp
― Mordy, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:37 (six years ago) link
The Four Freedoms enshrined in the Rome Treaty back in 57 are the free movement of goods, services, capital and persons. And as long as EU and the rest of the west insist on having the first three freedoms guide globalization, people elsewhere will take the fourth into their own hands.
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:40 (six years ago) link
aimless you're a smart guy. it was obvious what i was saying. articles like these are pushing for looser borders and they're disapproving of countries that close them.
― Mordy, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:40 (six years ago) link
The responses to the migration crisis are either open borders or a serious, comprehensive plan for alleviating global inequality. There is no other choices.
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:41 (six years ago) link
you mean there are no other choices that you personally think are moral bc there are other choices that are real choices and much more likely than either of those
― Mordy, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:43 (six years ago) link
as always it's important to keep ought/is in mind
No, in the long run there are no other choices. Everything else is avoidance.
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:45 (six years ago) link
Neither Iran or Saudi Arabia is likely to be very helpful; some will continue to choose to rationalize supporting or working with certain authoritarian governments but not others
― curmudgeon, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:46 (six years ago) link
The EU is currently working with Erdogans Turkey to keep out immigrants, but clearly that's not a longterm solution either.
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:47 (six years ago) link
everything else is avoidance of what? what are you saying exactly? why can't a country limit immigration, build walls, etc and continue on ignoring the misery going on outside the walls? isn't that history of most of civilization? xxp
― Mordy, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:47 (six years ago) link
the problems with the EU bribing Turkey and Libya to be their border control are frightfully obvious.
― Mordy, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:48 (six years ago) link
xpost: And it has never worked in the long run...
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:56 (six years ago) link
Also, it's really not true, most states throughout history has been trying to expand, I'd say.
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 20:59 (six years ago) link
there are other choices that are real choices and much more likely than either of those
I understand your concern that immigration is strengthening the trend toward fascism in all western nations. But you seem to be preemptively embracing the solutions proposed by the radical nationalists, as a way of undercutting them. In my view this not only makes you their unwilling ally, but also concedes that a huge swath of their political principles are legitimate. You might be hitting yourself in the hope that the blows will be softer if self-administered.
And, yes, I know this is a huge issue with massive ramifications that is bound to increase rapidly in the next couple of decades and it isn't at all clear what is the most practical means of dealing with it.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 11 December 2017 21:06 (six years ago) link
fwiw I am not particularly concerned nor am i advocating for anything. i'm just observing what seems to be a fait accompli at this point.
― Mordy, Monday, 11 December 2017 21:07 (six years ago) link
fwiw it does not work to compromize with the radical nationalists at all. They've been pretty much in control of Danish immigration politics for 12 out of the last 16 years, and the government in the remaining 4 years didn't to anything that different. It's a mistake to say radical nationalists in Europe are for closed borders, and if only the left closes them enough, they will be mollified. They are 'tough on immigration' parties, and their whole raison d'etre is to always be tougher than the other parties. Any law they get through, and any move in their direction, only lead to further demands, while also in most cases hurting actual efforts at immigrating people who have legitimate reasons to be here. Which of course leads to further problems, leading to more demands, leading to more problems, etc.
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 21:23 (six years ago) link
'integrating' not 'immigrating', sorry.
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 21:24 (six years ago) link
fred otm about the hard right. however
imo the choices are either fascism, or a serious comprehensive plan for alleviating global inequality (feat. open borders). open borders without the latter will have the results mordy describes.
― difficult listening hour, Monday, 11 December 2017 21:34 (six years ago) link
this is why revolutionary internationalist leftism and fascism are the only real political positions and everything else is fantasy tbh.
― difficult listening hour, Monday, 11 December 2017 21:35 (six years ago) link
One too many. Revolutionary Internationalist Leftism. Everything else is reaction.
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 21:41 (six years ago) link
lol well sure but the reactionaries might win, which is more than you can say for anyone else but us. i mean we could comfort ourselves by saying that actually it wouldn't count as winning because their civilization would extinguish itself. but that would be no comfort at all so instead we'd have to hope that they escaped the dying earth and constructed a monstrous fascist empire throughout the stars that much later fell to revolutionary internationalist leftism. which aside from requiring an even greater exertion of teleological faith would actually feel even worse.
― difficult listening hour, Monday, 11 December 2017 21:51 (six years ago) link
lads
― Mordy, Monday, 11 December 2017 21:54 (six years ago) link
your two realistic options for how to resolve the migration crisis is "revolutionary international leftism" and "fascism" - neither of which mean anything.
#IntergalacticRevolutionaryLeftism
Do keep up
― Frederik B, Monday, 11 December 2017 22:08 (six years ago) link
fascism would look pretty much like how it usually looks.
revolutionary internationalist leftism would aggressively redistribute global wealth downward by every means possible, redistributing political power along with it, in the belief that this would relax the stresses that give rise to fascist nationalism, maintain habitability on the maximum planetary surface, and produce the minimum possible 21-22c death toll.
imo if i can be monday morning stoned on anyone's middle east north africa and other geopolitical hotspots thread it's mordy's.
― difficult listening hour, Monday, 11 December 2017 22:10 (six years ago) link
thoughts?
http://www.rojava-info.com/2017/12/us-gives-ypg-500-million-weapon-aid.html?m=1
― sleeve, Thursday, 14 December 2017 18:46 (six years ago) link
Take that with huge handfuls of salt. The US does arm the YPG but it’s a sticky point of negotiation between various parties. Turkey believed it secured a commitment from Trump to stop sending them weapons, the US has said that they will reduce arms deliveries and may phase them out over time, it is still up for discussion. If they were going to spend half a billion next year, they wouldn’t be announcing it.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Thursday, 14 December 2017 18:54 (six years ago) link
Actually, I think the US technically claims to arm SDF divisions under YPG command rather than the YPG directly. The $500m figure seems familiar - it might be the total cost of supporting the SDF and aligned groups.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Thursday, 14 December 2017 18:57 (six years ago) link
Have any writers critiqued the Politico allegation re the Obama White House allegedly derailing an in investigation into alleged drug dealing by Hezbollah, in order to ensure that the Iran Nuclear Treaty would be reached?
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/20/572195727/politico-reporter-says-obama-administration-derailed-hezbollah-investigation
http://www.jpost.com/International/Hezbollah-scandal-perfect-timing-for-Trump-administration-520038
https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/obama-hezbollah-drug-trafficking-investigation/
In its determination to secure a nuclear deal with Iran, the Obama administration derailed an ambitious law enforcement campaign targeting drug trafficking by the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah, even as it was funneling cocaine into the United States, according to a POLITICO investigation.
The campaign, dubbed Project Cassandra, was launched in 2008 after the Drug Enforcement Administration amassed evidence that Hezbollah had transformed itself from a Middle East-focused military and political organization into an international crime syndicate that some investigators believed was collecting $1 billion a year from drug and weapons trafficking, money laundering and other criminal activities.
― curmudgeon, Thursday, 28 December 2017 19:12 (six years ago) link
saw some references to the CIA/FBI not giving a fuck about whatever the DEA is up to because of the pecking order in these sorts of things..
― officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Thursday, 28 December 2017 19:18 (six years ago) link
The obvious critique is- who cares? If you consider the threat of Iran obtaining nuclear capability to be a serious one, you'd obviously prioritise that over aome drug trafficking by an Iranian proxy.
Sounds like US done played itself, letting the drug trafficking continue for the sake of halting a fictional weapons programme.
Idk if Purdue pharma pretended to have a nuclear weapons programme lol
― But doctor, I am Camille Paglia (Bananaman Begins), Friday, 29 December 2017 11:02 (six years ago) link
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-usa/mattis-sees-larger-u-s-civilian-presence-in-syria-idUSKBN1EN1H8
U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said on Friday that he expected to see a larger U.S. civilian presence in Syria, including contractors and diplomats, as the fight against Islamic State militants nears its end and the focus turns toward rebuilding and ensuring the militants do not return.
Hmmm, wonder who will decide on the contractors...
― curmudgeon, Friday, 29 December 2017 22:38 (six years ago) link
no-bid contracts, here we come!
― A is for (Aimless), Friday, 29 December 2017 22:53 (six years ago) link
Thread on Iran protests from yesterday
Thread: Iran’s protests--including in traditional cities like Qom and Mashhad--are a reminder of the country’s deep political, social, and above all economic frustrations https://t.co/PRT1RUTdNX— Karim Sadjadpour (@ksadjadpour) December 29, 2017
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 30 December 2017 19:54 (six years ago) link
Trump tweeting about Iran being an “oppressive regime “ after he has been selling military ware to Saudi Arabia and sucking up to China, Philippines, and Russia is well typical. Plus Trumpies tweeting that CNN is ignoring the protests is wrong . If Glen Greenwald tweets about Iran it will probably just be a mention of the CIA’s history in Iran.
― curmudgeon, Saturday, 30 December 2017 20:52 (six years ago) link
Any 2018 thread name ideas?
― curmudgeon, Thursday, 4 January 2018 03:55 (six years ago) link
MENA, MENA, Tekel, Parsin 2018
― Mordy, Thursday, 4 January 2018 03:57 (six years ago) link
Confess that I had to google that, but it works
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belshazzar%27s_feast
― curmudgeon, Friday, 5 January 2018 20:23 (six years ago) link
Seems legit.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Friday, 5 January 2018 20:27 (six years ago) link
I took Mordy's suggestion and started a 2018 thread
MENA, MENA, Tekel, Parsin (Middle East, North Africa & other Geopolitical Hotspots) 2018
― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 06:04 (six years ago) link