cat person

You don't seem very ambiguous about it

genuinely curious, where are the countless stories like this by a male narrator

m coleman is right i suggested it more as to form, not at all to defend/justify the actions by either party.

how abt if this female writer herself wrote a vers from the male narrators pov, would everyone still be as dismissive / not want to read it?

while i agree that i haven't read countless examples of this scenario from a male perspective the idea that someone's reaction to this story would be "i would like to read this from the man's perspective" seems beyond banal and wrong as a reaction to this story

“When u laguehd when I asked if you were a virgin was it because youd fucked so many guys”
“Are you fucking that guy right now”
“Is someone getting the best"
"the best"
"the best"
"the best"
"of you."

i like it fine on its own terms & think its well-observed and engaging fwiw

i speculated it might be *interesting* to read from multiple points of view. and that's "beyond banal" or "wrong" or jesus subconsciously excusing this creep's behavior?

bidding ILX a fond adieu

imo the male perspective is p much already there. for instance by the end you are as aware of the emotion induced in him by her laugh as you are of the emotion in her that caused it. so is she. having read this version of the story i felt pretty clear on what had happened to both the characters. the reverse however would not be true: he does not know even at the end what she is feeling and a story from his pov would not incorporate hers. huh.

very good post

Oh that is very neat.

Interesting that her interview suggests she was trying to see things from his side anyway (sorta):

The first draft of the story came fairly easily—I wrote it in a feverish burst—but I did feel self-conscious, afterward, about the verisimilitude of the texts, especially because Margot is younger than I am and there’s nothing more embarrassing than someone older trying to mimic the communication style of a slightly different generation. There are fewer of her texts in the story for that reason. I liked writing Robert’s side of the conversation, on the other hand, in part because I felt like I was his analogue as a writer: both of us were trying to imitate how someone younger would talk, always on the verge of a slip that would give the game away.

i really liked the story. i think it speaks to a transactional sense of entitlement commonly found among Nice Guys that is rooted in misogyny.

don't see this narrator self-identifying as a nice guy tbh. he's not a particularly fleshed out character tho.

genuinely curious, where are the countless stories like this by a male narrator

good question imo. so many people saying "we've all read this story" - don't think so - if it's actually written by this author i don't think we can assume we've already read that story.

he does not know even at the end what she is feeling and a story from his pov would not incorporate hers

it's possible to show things by absence. one of the things i don't like about this story is that the reader doesn't get to know more than the character.

Are you saying you can't think of any stories or novels written by men about male misogynists?

he's not a particularly fleshed out character tho

That's a fair critique though - one person's archetype is another person's "too unspecific"

nobody said "a man should rewrite this story" tbf - i also think upthread people are misinterpreting m coleman's post. i read as "it'd be interesting to see this author tell this story from the male's perspective" as "this needs to be more fair to the male character by telling his side of the story"

the two things are p different. the first, while obv just some idle musing, might be interesting, right?

sorry meant to say people seem to be interpreting his post as "this needs to be more fair to the male character by telling his side of the story"

I super recommend the interview - she's good at explaining what she was doing (e.g. by making the guy so thinly drawn) without overexplaining it

https://www.newyorker.com/books/this-week-in-fiction/fiction-this-week-kristen-roupenian-2017-12-11

I linked it above. Its good, there'll be a lot of pressure on whatever she does next.

In her twitter she also linked this reaction piece: https://elladawson.com/2017/12/09/bad-sex-or-the-sex-we-dont-want-but-have-anyway/

I know that both perspectives are strongly in there but...many of the readings are tied to your biography and history, and so we also test our feelings against the writer of the piece, who happens to be a woman.

I was actually thinking of some names re: the male perspective. Immediately after I finished this story last night I wanted to read Pavese's "The Suicides" (i'll pick it up, think I left it at my parents' bookcase lol) just this highly corrosive story of an affair completely gone wrong. Maybe Moravia's Boredom for an age-gap story. Or Radiguet's Count D'Orgel's Ball from a young male perspective, this time an affair with a married older woman. I think a few of Schnitzler's short stories would count here too.

Also it might usually be to do with those stories re-counting an academic Male to female student r/ship. But I've never engaged with it (just sounds like a total waste of time). I do remember seeing a twitter thread from a woman about a couple of months ago who couldn't quite believe what she is reading.

I also don't really get when men feel the need to "take the man's side" (or whatever) in a piece of fiction, as if it's impossible to identify or find commonalities with a female character

...

the reverse however would not be true: he does not know even at the end what she is feeling and a story from his pov would not incorporate hers. huh.

― difficult listening hour, Monday, December 11, 2017 2:03 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a great breakdown, dlh!

The author's take on how Margot's constantly shifting in her guesses of Robert's motivations and inner self which rings true to me. Some people have commented that it seems she's projecting, which seems off. I don't know that anyone can take someone else purely on the basis of their actions, and we all bring prior knowledge, hopes, even ideals to the table. It does feel like Robert's projecting throughout the story, but it's almost completely about externalities -- not what Margot would want, or why, but purely judgments on things she does and chooses.

I keep thinking about my college creative nonfiction writing course and how this is very similar in style to the work a lot of my classmates wrote, and not far from some of the themes, but it exceeds anything we came up with in execution. I wish I'd pushed myself harder at the time, but writing in this way is difficult and I felt like the experience really indicted my own sense of introspection and my understanding of others.

In a sense, I recognize both of these people.

<i>the story was v successful at casting a kind of awful vibe where a perceptive, intelligent woman drifts from one impulse to another without feeling able to stand up for her own shifting feelings, or even declare them</i>

this resonated with me--i read this as a particularly gendered and truthful experience of a certain kind of sexual encounter, but maybe a man would also participate in this type of extremely unfullfiling sex without trying to do anything to change the encounter (?)

I think the changes necessary to make it plausible, or at least plausible in a commonplace way, would also make it into a much different situation

I think Robert is supposed to be an MRA/pickup artist type, not an everyman. From the beginning he is always putting the narrator down or else ignoring or belittling her. He never takes a genuine interest in her life, to the point where it seems calculated. In each of their interactions, his first priority is to protect his ego. He’s more pitiable than loathsome, though he is that too. People like that — closed off, cruel people — are not even truly alive. You can’t imagine him loving anyone. The fact that there is a cottage industry training people to be like that is, you know, horrifying.

Any man can become like Robert in the sense that everyone is capable of killing the best parts of themselves, but he is really far gone in my view. There are people like him, and they are legion, but there is nothing ordinary about this pathological sort of existence no matter how common it is.

no, he’s an everyman. we did this shit long before MRA types had these tropes. it was a thing as far as I’ve seen, back in my life

and yeah, it’s bad, but people clue into empathy and become whole humans at different parts in their lives! or they don’t. the pressure to understand others, as a societal good, is perhaps higher now when we roll our eyes at public figures proclaiming they have an understanding of women after having a daughter

Fine but it’s still fucked up behavior, stemming from a place of extraordinary selfishness and suspicion.

like the entire twitter-response male denial of this being an abnormal man, of us needing a story from the male viewpoint, of the ending seeming unrealistic, of the supposed judgmental bits

that all seems more false to me, and this story isn’t an absolute, but I could hear the details of it from a friend and believe it — but the details never come across like that, you end up with more emotional color, especially on the male end

sure treeship, I’d believe that. but how many people, really, have those factors?

the story isn’t an indictment of men, all men, even this fictional man. it’s got some facets to consider and some behaviors we find questionable, some gross, some too optimistic or naive

hm...i just finished reading this. my 2 cents:

robert reminded me of a nerdy (yes, overweight) friend i had when i was a kid. he made the same type of jokes, making these these surreal, imaginary characterizations of people (he did it towards men and women) to cover up for his social awkwardness. i actually always thought of him as a gentle bear and i would say this to him. so here's where i think the story is not believable: so there's this omnipresent narrator thing going on, but then towards the end goes into this post structuralist point of view thing, which is fine, albeit a bit clumsy. but while the narrator is still a separate entity from margot -- in the first half of the story -- the narrator equates robert's seeing more nude women with a fantasy of being with an experienced man, if i'm reading this correctly. i'm going to draw from my own personal experience with the roberts i've met and say no. robert sounds like he totally lacks experience with women. i have met women who have misjudged guys' sexual experience simply because he was way older

so why is robert's lack of sexual experience so important to me. well, as someone who has been around a lot of guys, not having sex can put guys in an existential crisis and it's a crisis that they try to mask (avoid) by getting hobbies like movies and art and whatever other thing they think women would be interested in. but while they're working on these hobbies, they become frustrated because they think they are "doing everything right" but are still not getting what they want. like someone said, as if women were prizes to be won

the guys i've met who think like this were either teenagers or in their twenties but with the mindset of a 15 year old in all aspects of their life. meaning they would not have an apartment or house of their own, because they lack motivation or ambition to do much of anything in their lives. so a robert having a place of his own doesn't ring true to me

anyway. sex with margot was the most important thing in robert's view, imo, which is why everything was reduced to sex when he became so angry at the end. what makes me think this dude is also an amateur is his putting margot on a pedestal by imposing his own conservative beliefs on her and his poor communication skills. and the tongue kissing. he is all the bad things that the author has experienced, which is fair enough, but robert as a single entity is not believable, but it works in getting the message across

also apparently the author based this story off her experience with dating apps. my female friends tell me they get bombarded with messages and have so many men to pick from. why pick a man who you're not attracted to? the story could have been more fleshed out in terms of how women choose who to go out with, because there is a real struggle between finding the right balance between looks and interests and (what you see as) "success." this goes for men and women of course

i felt so bad for margot though and one thing that i did find really interesting is how both failed at communicating. margot because she was confused and didn't want to hurt his feelings and robert because of his what i truly believe is his lack of experience with women and probably bad role models (parents, guardians, friends, etc.)

in general it was an interesting read and it did keep me wanting to know what would happen next

pic.twitter.com/qKkd7fNoAN

— Men React to Cat Person (@MenCatPerson) December 11, 2017

Focusing on the ending feels like missing the point a bit - it's an extreme, but not untrue, depiction of male reaction to rejection ime. The first time I read it, I thought it was pretty hilarious, almost a relief after all the tension that preceded it. (And if you think that kind of thing doesn't happen often or is an outlier, a girlfriend of mine recently told me how a guy she was dating, a mutual friend of ours, said she was being "a jackass" because she told him she wasn't interested in a relationship after three nice-but-not-mindblowing dates. He also said calling her a jackass was supposed to be a compliment? I don't even know... the point is, he was far from an MRA-type, though exhibited some pretty typical Nice Guy behaviour.)

the story was v successful at casting a kind of awful vibe where a perceptive, intelligent woman drifts from one impulse to another without feeling able to stand up for her own shifting feelings, or even declare them

absolutely - this is the bit that resonated most strongly with me and other women I've discussed this with. the oscillation between "I hope he likes me/I hope he doesn't hurt me", handwaving bad behaviour as "maybe he's just having a bad day, maybe I offended him, I need to TRY HARDER". and just *wanting to impress* some guy even when he hasn't done anything to deserve it apart from being kind of cute/well-dressed/good at making jokes is a thing that almost every 20-year-old straight girl, including myself, I know has gone through.

The author has deliberately withheld a lot of information about Robert, but just looking at the overall reactions, it's funny how so many men have a specific idea about who he is - he's an MRA-type, he hasn't had a lot of sexual experience, he's this or he's that. whereas most women see Robert as just pretty much as he's written - a random guy.

i have reservations about how he comes off at the end but ^^^^ he's a random guy

Sorry to state the obvious, but surely the fact that people are debating this is due to the very ambiguity this story was earlier accused of not having - which ambiguity is baked right in, right down to the titular concept of the story? The narrator admits in an aside that she isn't sure whether the dude lied about having cats (which is surely a huge red flag & far from normal male/human behaviour is the kind of psycho stunt that the male lead in a romcom has to admit to in the 3rd act) or whether she just didn't see them. It's clearly designed to be read both ways.

That said, I don't feel that the final texts are that much of an escalation from his earlier extremely douchey behaviour - there's a nasty edge to a lot of it throughout.

It is that he is a random guy, and not some MRA thing (that's a Methodology, right? Nothing felt too calculated)...but it also felt like they were both random people playing at using/being used by one another. The intention at the beginning is to connect, he is a dick but she gives her number too. Everyone is degraded by playing at whatever towards the end.

Like, that's often how life is, but then again I'm he person who watches Salo, goes 'yup, he gets it', then moves on.

Sorry to state the obvious, but surely the fact that people are debating this is due to the very ambiguity this story was earlier accused of not having

that is what people are debating. some say it is ambiguous, others say the ending removes a lot of ambiguity.

moving away from that slightly, i just think this idea of "he's left open, you can interpret him how you wish" is kind of a thing people say that sounds like it's clever on behalf of the writer but isn't necessarily so. also the ending is the bit that, for some at least, seems to stop that being the case. i mean i dunno, ending a story is difficult, i read it again last night and i think the ending was a tempting stick of dynamite that actually is a case of plot riding roughshod over character.

there's a lot of wiggling itt like "if a friend told me this story i'd believe it" - i mean we do have a phrase "truth is stranger than fiction" and obv there are plenty assholes out there, i wouldn't doubt any story of human behaviour not least in this sphere. still dunno if it feels true to this character but he isn't v fleshed out.

as someone who has been around a lot of guys, not having sex can put guys in an existential crisis and it's a crisis that they try to mask (avoid) by getting hobbies like movies and art and whatever other thing they think women would be interested in. but while they're working on these hobbies, they become frustrated because they think they are "doing everything right" but are still not getting what they want. like someone said, as if women were prizes to be won

the guys i've met who think like this were either teenagers or in their twenties but with the mindset of a 15 year old in all aspects of their life. meaning they would not have an apartment or house of their own, because they lack motivation or ambition to do much of anything in their lives. so a robert having a place of his own doesn't ring true to me

some fairly wild stereotypes there imo going in all sorts of directions, maybe if those guys were just boning more they'd have a ferrari.

you, a nerd: have you read about Cat Person?
me, well informed on topical items: uh, he goes by Yusuf Islam now

— Five Bergolden Rings 🎅🎁🎄 (@BergoEsBueno) December 11, 2017

i liked this story a lot. way better than any recent new yorker stories i've read in a long time. really loved how carefully it depicted the weird atmosphere of a date (which, after all, usually happens with somebody you barely know, and often leads to weird situations where you feel kind of trapped, even if they aren't necessarily dangerous situations) and how carefully it depicted the narrator's shifting attitudes toward the guy. the ending was startling (for its abruptness as much as anything else) but after a few seconds it felt like the right way to end the story.

^^ i meant to replace my second use of "how carefully it depicted" w/ a different phrase that meant the same thing, but hey, that's why i'm not in the new yorker

LG and imago coming off like you don't know any women who are dating w/ apps tbh

LL and io OTM itt

i have seen the sort of thing that happens in apps, of course i have. i've heard from friends, read articles about it. i'm under no doubt it's intense and horrible, dick pics etc.

but this story features no apps.

that's an interesting choice tbh - she says it was inspired by a meeting on an app but she chooses to her meet him irl. i have to say, maybe this is sad in a "oh no our phones" way but i haven't heard tell of a friend meeting someone irl like in a shop or whatever, in years, or maybe even ever. meeting irl at a party or through a shared interest, maybe. that does lend a little weight to him as pick-up artist, but i don't really want to open that up again.

chooses to have her*

i liked this story a lot. way better than any recent new yorker stories i've read in a long time

i should add, so did i. said it at the start of thread.

but this story features no apps.

The kind of frustrated text strings that this story ends with are common in general casual / exploratory dating, whether via an app or not. They're just so frequent via apps that you would surely not be surprised by the ending if you talk much to women who are doing a moderate amount of interacting with men in the text-y era.

(talk much about their experiences, I mean; not trying to imply you're an incipient cat person who doesn't interact with women at all!)

gonna stfu though bcz Lechera & Laurel have said everything relevant already, and more usefully

i just don't t think you can accuse people of not knowing about what happens in apps, then when it's pointed out there are no apps in this story, say "well i meant texts, it's all the same". it isn't really the same, when he's basically stalking a person who he met irl and then sending texts to her phone number. there's a hierarchy of communication and how personal it is, just as there's a hierarchy to our relationships with people, those we've never met offline, those we see every day, those we've slept with.

the question of why they meet irl is one i'd love to hear the author answer, just because i think it's an interesting choice in a story which seems to demand they met via tinder. to me that's why you mention apps, cos this story feels of that world even tho there are no apps in it. i think them meeting on tinder or something would have been really interesting and almost an open goal, his photos, their first message etc, so much interesting stuff to explore, but maybe it's zeitgeisty enough already.

How is he stalking her? He did stop texting once she/her friend let him know. Up to the last interaction, which is just nasty, and could be the beginning of something like stalking.

Apps are the ice-breaker so you can begin texting, and this r/ship is built via texts.

I thought this was good, on the whole, but one major sticking point was that she thought he was mid-twenties but he turns out to be mid-thirties and if someone is kinda heavy set and hairy and schlumpy in the way she describes then those two ages aren't really confusable in that way, or very rarely are. Or if they are it's that the guy you thought was in his thirties is actually ten years younger not that other way round.

but i thought this was pretty fresh, on the whole.

maybe schlumpy is pushing it.

Or if they are it's that the guy you thought was in his thirties is actually ten years younger not that other way round.

maybe she thought he was one of those guys who looks like he's in his mid-thirties but is actually ten years younger, and then it turned out he was just in his his mid-thirties?

something can be true and righteous and thought-provoking without being especially gripping or well-written. no doubt this does reflect the experiences of many, and i'm all for the discussion, if not the text itself, which i felt was too cartoonishly on-the-nose with its awkwardness and horror, and lacking in the oxygen of externality