Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

I actually call her "Ema" (hebrew for mom) in front of the kids, which kind of works bc I didn't call my own mom that, so it doesn't leave me feeling like I am referring to my own mom.

do you write her name high on that silver screen?

again, this is that progressive western mass thing. my kids called all their teachers by their first names too. there must be some serious prog-ed literature on the subject.

loling about mommies

this is one of the reasons some men scare me -- if they cannot fuck you, and you are not their mommy, you don't exist/have no purpose. if you do manage to exist, they let you know they think you don't deserve to exist. this is at the heart of restricting reproductive rights and patrolling women's sexuality in general. see also mike pence and mother or anyone who thinks that way and expresses it openly

it really provokes an existential fear

Sarahell they moved from SF to Pleasant Valley (i think thats it?) A few years,ago

Xp

Scott, it actually comes from Quaker educational theory! (Which had a strong impact on Dewey, et. al.)

As both a Quaker and progressive educator, I rallied to get my students to call me by my first name and the school administration came down on me (in my first year) like a ton of bricks.

Now that I’m much more established, I might try again.

xp - Pleasant Hill?

That's it yes

oh this does all remind me of the time that i was at the local market and the cashier -a woman - said to me "where's your little helper wife?". i was kinda stunned! at first i didn't know who she was talking about. i was picturing a troll woman in a tree knitting. i just said "uh....at home?" i told maria and it STILL bugs her and this was years ago. sometimes we go there and i get out of the car and ask if she's coming with me and she'll say "i don't want to go in there. i'm not your little helper wife." ouch! it stung. i only told her because i HAD to tell someone. the olde tyme residents here are very trad. i mean most of them voted for hillary, but still trad. very quiet on sunday.

xp - lol at living somewhere for at least 20 years and not knowing the names of suburban towns near you, esp. ones that appear on BART system maps.

What can i say all the pleasant places run together

Speaking of tree names, the guy who was one of the philosophical forces of the school my kids went to is Chip Wood:

https://www.responsiveclassroom.org/product/responsive-school-discipline/

lol school discipline + wood chipper

I kind of crack up when my parents mostly say "your dad" or "your mom" when talking about the other to me, but for a while they'd slip up and say a name and go "Mary.. uh, your mom, said.." and by now they just say whatever because I am pretty sure I don't get confused if they refer to each other by first name lol

sorry to sidetrack the maleness thread, but I was thinking how this got super off track when my grandfather was ill because my dad referred to him as "my dad" or "your grandpa"

meanwhile, grandpa had both of us in the room and was asking where my dad was, because his dementia was really cranking up

identity is fleeting

Kind of went on Facebook crusade/rampage within a closed Judaism discussion group today (interesting group that ranges from chassidic to completely secular queer leftists and a few non Jews as well). A couple of people suggested that orthodox laws of gender separation would help prevent assault, which is ridiculous. But I was encouraged by the wide range of responses including from orthodox men who said no, you can only better educate men and root out abusers.

how is this a maleness thread? i thought we'd be discussing boxing and bottle openers.

yeah mista morbz is right if ya ain't discussing the great John L. Sullivan why this thread ain't worth a plug nickel!!!

But I was encouraged by the wide range of responses including from orthodox men who said no, you can only better educate men and root out abusers.

To my great surprise one of the best communications I got about this was from my (conservative) rabbi

I should say: one of the best communications I got from a fellow man

https://splinternews.com/i-didnt-want-to-be-one-of-those-people-i-was-i-am-1819711373

More #metoo in the Jewish community

https://medium.com/@jblistman/when-i-was-nineteen-years-old-elie-wiesel-grabbed-my-ass-10370829c4bd

I think one good thing about all this light is that it helps us get away from the idea that, because there's so much bad politics that enables sexual assault, that you should expect people with good politics to not be sexual assaulters. I don't think it's like that. Their ideas about masculinity were born in the same vat as were yours or mine. Men who struggle for civil rights are different from men who devote their life to corruption and oppression in MANY IMPORTANT WAYS but in this ONE important way they are alike.

I agree.

We really need some way of accepting that men in general do bad things without this collapsing into normalisation or greying everything into business as usual, nothing to see here. Actually I'm not sure about the term 'accept' here either. Urgh. You know what I mean probably.

Sort of acknowledging that there aren't any angels, only a lineup of progressively worse human beings who at one extreme need work and at the other extreme need putting away.

I thought this was quite good also:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2017/10/18/men-of-the-world-you-are-not-the-weather/?tid=ss_fb-bottom&utm_term=.3bcc972fd806

I mean like is there any reason you would rationally be surprised if you learned Paul Wellstone had sexually assaulted someone? Prince? Barack Obama? Terry Pratchett?

https://splinternews.com/i-didnt-want-to-be-one-of-those-people-i-was-i-am-1819711373

― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Friday, October 20, 2017 12:29 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I remember I was very inexperienced with anything [ sexual ] at the time, and, you know, I hadn’t been with anyone or anything like that before. I think back then I just didn’t realize how to go about something, what even asking consent was and things like that. I thought someone just went along with it, and it just happened.

I related to this a bit. I think that is the heart of a lot of backlash and male anxiety around this subject -- that for a lot of young men (and some not so young ones), approaching women and sex are just, like, hard. And of course this is intertwined with a toxic culture that gives us unrealistic ideas about the free availability of sex to anyone with a penis, as though if you *can't* have sex with someone easily on any given night you must be doing it wrong (and, indeed, if you can't have sex easily with someone obejctively way out of your league).

I would be genuinely surprised at Obama
Xp

I related to this a bit. I think that is the heart of a lot of backlash and male anxiety around this subject -- that for a lot of young men (and some not so young ones), approaching women and sex are just, like, hard.

I related to this too. It reminded me of when I was a 19 year old college student and we had a few friends hanging out in our dorm room, including this one woman who was flirting with me all night. Late that night after everyone else had left, without asking or saying anything, she climbed into bed with me. By this time I understood all sorts of situations where it was inappropriate to touch or make 'sexual advances' on women, and knew all the things that didn't constitute consent, but sneaking into my bed and clutching my body wasn't one of them. Did this constitute consent? Why *else* would she flirt with me all night and then jump into bed with me? But I decided no, this wasn't consent, or maybe I just said or did the wrong things, but all I remember is that I was intentionally unresponsive and scared to do anything for fear of it being perceived as assault, and about a minute later she climbed out of my bed and left the room.

Unlike that "Chris" guy being interviewed, I did the right thing, but here I am well into middle age and I still talk myself out of seemingly every possibility for a sexual encounter. I mean, do people actually ask each other "can I fondle your hips?" or whatever? I'm glad teenage boys are now taught in school that it's illegal and wrong to take advantage of inebriated, sleeping, or simply uninterested women. But sometimes I think they should be taught how to properly initiate sex and lovemaking as well.

See, again, I guess we're not "supposed to", but I do genuinely sympathize with some of these "incels" or whatever. They have a right to be angry. Not at women - that's utterly stupid - but at a societal norm of "maleness" that never teaches males how to relate to women, either sexually or non-sexually. I mean, Jesus, as best I can tell the only people even promising to teach men how to initiate sexual contact are the fucking PUA scammers!

Maybe I'm in the minority (not to get all hashtag-notallmen-ish about it) but I don't think gentleness / respect / consent / boundaries should need to be taught.

Plenty of people seem to be able to figure it out without lessons.

Plenty of people seem to be able to figure it out without lessons.

Bullshit. They were taught; it just happened at an early enough age that by the time they entered the world, it seemed innate. But it wasn't. Children are clay-brained primates. Everything good about adults was forced into them by responsible authority figures while they were still clay-brained primates.

If it didn't need to be taught, assault and harassment wouldn't be the epidemic it is.

Well, whatevs. I don't think lessons from PUA fuckheads are the answer in any case.

How about having normal human relationships that include women? Friends, classmates, co-workers, sisters, mothers, neighbors, etc.? Approach them like they don't have cooties and strangely human relationships happen.

how many people itt have had consent lessons? seems like most people here have at least a decent sense of what it means - i'd have thought having a decent view of human morality and how to treat others would lead many to a naturally progressive view about consent.

i do accept that some form of teaching or education (re-education) which challenged the stereotypical view of what a man's role is, in relationships/society, could be useful. there is so much confusion out there about how men should behave. i am a p passive person in my interactions with others, and also when it comes to initiating relationships, the amount of times that people urge persistence or whatever is p weird. it's engrained in so many of our stories about love etc that men should pursue women - and even like at a wedding or something you might sometimes hear a romantic narrative about how the man just kept trying after initially being rebuffed. prob just one of many, many ways in which "romantic" acts and creepy acts are almost interchangeable - whether it's one or the other seems based on entirely arbitrary factors.

and then like if you start to think beyond traditional gender roles - it's a bit like how do relationships begin in that world? do they even begin? maybe they don't. maybe everyone is alone. or maybe we need to build it all from some year zero which erases all expectations, prejudices and limitations for each identity.

xpost

I had a few ambiguous bed encounters in college like the one described above. One involved an ex wanting to come home with me from a bar and getting into bed with me but then telling me she didn’t want to do anything. I obliged of course but was also left wondering “did she want me to be more persistent or did I do something wrong or something?” Even in relationships I have had women tell me they wanted me to be persistent when they initially didn’t feel like it. But the benefit of a relationship is you can build up the trust level and the understanding of signals to know the difference between “get me in the mood” and just “no.” That’s one reason casual sex isn’t always all it’s cracked up to be.

I have attended a consent class/workshop and it was helpful. But the fact that I was even inclined to do that reflects a lifetime of, fortunately, really positive and and informal (in the course of daily life) instruction from partners and friends - the great, too-generous role models that I'll never really be able to repay. Being in a women's studies program, with the social world and after-class conversations that implies, obviously also played a part.

My parents would never have talked to me about sex in a million years --- but they did at least raise me to be a somewhat nice and considerate person I think. And they would have backed up, rather than rolling their eyes at, media depictions in which male aggressors are the bad guys. I remember my mom pointing out that she didn't think "Bigmouth Strikes Again" was as funny as I did (age 13 or 14) because "there are men out there who beat women." There were probably a million pushes and micro-pushes like that which got me to the point I'm at now.

Agreed with plenty of the above. I also was beyond useless at picking up on signals and even worse about being able to do something about them. Fortunately I never went through this incel women-hating phase, quite likely due to being raised by a feminist, so that's good, but I was still very lonely and depressed and honestly felt like I had no place in the world. Obviously I learned how to do this human interaction thing over the years, but it would have been nice to have an idea about this stuff when I was still young. As the father of two boys I will really make an effort to help them with this when they are a bit older.

Not a parent myself and have no real business asserting an opinion, but are there other things, probably ones you're doing anyway, that lay the groundwork and just build up consent as a normal mode of behavior? I dunno like... stopping the kid to remind him that it'd be nice to *ask* if the girl wants to play Candy Land, imagining things from other people's emotional and decision-making perspective etc. etc...

I imagine a lot of this is the normal apparatus of teaching empathy and consideration, which then becomes a basis for talking points when a scene in a movie raises the possibility for a teachable moment. I mean obv 95 percent of parenting is just keeping your head above water, and stuff doesn't play out according to a master raising-your-child plan, but sexual consent probably isn't really a totally separate skill off in its own box. Though I agree totally that it's an area where exact what-to-do guidelines are in short supply. I for one am okay with the fact that I (generally) erred on the side of caution and probably missed out on a few experiences that would have been consensual and great for all parties. Better than the alternative, and the times that are closest to "something was maybe fishy there or I passed over some kinds of signals in my excitement" are the times I still feel the most troubled by, fifteen years on.

i am a p passive person in my interactions with others, and also when it comes to initiating relationships

Well, tbf, being willing to hang back and wait to see what happens kinda helps. Not as an explicit strategy*. More like, this may be a good way to avoid coming off all creepylike and stalkery**.

Almost all of my high school/college/young-adult relationships were with people who were already good friends in my social circle. If you're close friends with someone for 10+ years? It's not all that weird to attempt to date during one of the periods you're both available. Fortunately a lot of these people are still friends.

Anyway I had a decent "career" (ew) of dating, then settled happily into marriage/house/kids with my all-time fave gf. Personally, I would have NO idea how to hit on someone in a bar or whatever; the idea seems alien to me. But kudos to those who can make it work or have made it work.

* = pls do NOT use this as an explicit strategy, gross ew yuck
** = yeah and there is also a way to do this that IS creepylike and stalkery, pls do not do this

i was also terrible at it when i was young. and i was really immature. women basically had to hit me over the head with a club and drag me back to their cave for me to get the picture. i think i was just afraid. which is one reason why i drank so much back then. for courage. luckily, i wasn't a horrible drunk. if someone had crawled into my bed back then and i was attracted to them i totally would have made some kind of move though. because i was drunk so much. and young. and horny. but if i had heard no/i'm sleeping/etc that would have been the end of it. that never happened though. i had a friend when i was 19/20 who decided to become obsessed with me for a bit - she was very cute and we actually went to a big d.c. women's march together in 1989 which was amazing and huge - and one night we were at another friend's house drunk and she wouldn't stop latching on to me and i decided to go home because it was kind of a drag and she followed me home! barefoot! for about 15 blocks in philly late at night. i was scared for her so i told her to come in to my apartment and she immediately got naked and got in my bed and bugged me for sex until she passed out. it was kinda scary. plus, i just worried about her in general. being young isn't always so footloose and fancy free.

XXp I think that's one side of it, sure, but I had plenty of training to be a nice, considerate person and found that left me still not equipped to deal with the adult world. My education - about relationships, not just about consent - could have been much better.

Me, I have a 10-year-old daughter. She is probably 2-4 years away from having to contend with boys who've probably had more or less unlimited access to hardcore pornography. We do not know how that's going to go. We are working to prepare her without freaking her out entirely, and that is a balancing act.

My son (now 6 but seriously intellectually disabled) is on a different path. He can't talk, but sometimes communicates with an assistive device. Will he be able to understand consent, empathy, boundaries? Will he develop some type of sexuality on the usual timeline? Not at all? Early? We have no idea. I hold out some hope that he'll be able to date (within a very protective cocoon) but I am not sure he should be a parent. Hard to know where to go with that.

How about having normal human relationships that include women? Friends, classmates, co-workers, sisters, mothers, neighbors, etc.? Approach them like they don't have cooties and strangely human relationships happen.

In my last post I maybe gave the inaccurate impression that I turned down every opportunity for sex; no, I've had some sporadic experience since I was 14 (i have no idea how that happened so young), several relationships, some random hookups that I'm sure were consensual (or in the aforementioned time when I was 14, almost forced on me). But I still feel awkward the first time with anyone new, so extremely cautious about not doing anything that could possibly be misconstrued as non-consensual. Not only was I never taught anything about how to relate to other people (sexually or otherwise), I was often lied to if I asked about it when I was growing up. As a teen I had to seek this information out myself, and learned all the things I should never do with women. But nobody seemed to offer up much advice as what I *should* do; I consider myself fortunate to have been able to figure it out on my own, albeit not until I was almost 20.

I had to google some of the terms used above that i was unfamiliar with, seen the abbreviation a few times but didn't know what a PUA was. Wow, what an incredibly creepy scene....

Maybe I'm in the minority (not to get all hashtag-notallmen-ish about it) but I don't think gentleness / respect / consent / boundaries should need to be taught.

Plenty of people seem to be able to figure it out without lessons.

People have covered this already but this position is horseshit. It is the analogous position to teaching your children to be "colorblind", which then opens the avenue for them to absorb all of the shitty status quo racism that exists in our society.

Haha @ scott seward

I was exactly the same way

I wasn't afraid of initiating anything so much as "I couldn't conceive of somebody actually being sexually attracted to me"

DJP - Ok (if the "teaching" comprises a life of decent people showing/telling you how to be decent). But smarmy-ass PUA manuals or lessons are not the antidote.

xp - I think just about all of us will be confronted with shitty status quo racism whether we're taught to be "colorblind" or not. Not sure if by "absorb", you mean accept. I wasn't taught to be colorblind (I'm white); I observed racism; I never accepted it.

self-xp: "smarmy-ass PUA manuals or lessons are not the antidote."

Which was what I was responding to!

I've got two sons and I've made sure I've told them everything I can about consent, respect and boundaries - because nobody taught me, and I wish they had.