Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

Yes, I can say I understand that reverberation from both sides.

And I also just wanted to give my friend as an example of how much of an impact it can have to have someone in your life who sends the right message at an impressionable age, because I really think there was something about seeing myself through his response to me that woke me up to what I was doing and prevented me from ever trying something like that again.

man alive, I think at that point in life there's this discrepancy between what you've been taught, know is right, and what that behavior actually looks like in practice. And I'm glad that dude helped point it out.

As far as being intoxicated or having a diminished capacity and the issue of consent.. I know at this point in my life the I'm only really comfortable remembering how a relationship started if I'm confident that I was actively engaged in the whole thing, and so was my partner. There are incidents on either side where this wasn't especially the case, where things were lopsided or intentions weren't clear, and I don't like that.

I don't understand how people can kind of brush off situations like that instead of feeling kind of shitty about it!

I made an FB post about #metoo, knowing full well it could come off as 'virtue signalling' but it was more out of frustration that I was hardly seeing anything about it from other straight guys I guess. Think it's important that this is more than a sharing experience for people who have suffered abuse and harassment and an opportunity for those lucky enough not to be directly affected by it to sit up and listen and understand. I wanted my male friends to do the same and take these posts seriously, and not try and do that thing where they prove the point by challenging it. Sadly we're still at a stage where males tend to listen to males more than females

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/16/a-simple-list-of-things-men-can-do-to-change-our-work-and-life-culture?CMP=share_btn_fb

xp - did it work?

Haha, if you're asking if it 'fixed sexism', no.
It led to an interesting discussion though. For people who don't need to worry about sexual harassment, it's not alway obvious what others suffer through.
A big part of this is because victims don't always speak up, or they get ignored. For the privileged ones, that means they never fully grasp the extent of the issue. #metoo really throws all that into stark relief.
So many of my (mostly female) friends have posted a status update, and they're just the ones who felt comfortable sharing.
Some have even gone on to describe their experiences, and it's never 'this one time', it's 'I get this almost every time I go out and it's been going on since before I became sexually mature'.
You can't ignore that or treat it as an unfortunate but isolated incident. It's practically everyone I know who is female, and some men too of course.
As for the fellas on my Facebook, I know a few people get it, and they've replied and made some good points. However, it's frustrating seeing blokes on other threads saying things like 'there are levels of harassment', 'I don't do this so why are you patronising me?', 'this is not my experience' etc..
In doing this, I've had to wrestle with my own thoughts, feelings and history and I hope a lot of other men are doing the same. While I've never knowingly harassed or assaulted anyone, I can't acquit myself of ever having displayed sexist behaviour, sexist opinions, abusing my status as a male, or simply not doing anything to stop the actions of others. I'm hoping this whole exercise challenges men like me to look into their past, think about 'that one time that didn't really count', and really come to terms with what they did and what the consequences were.

but it was more out of frustration that I was hardly seeing anything about it from other straight guys I guess. Think it's important that this is more than a sharing experience for people who have suffered abuse and harassment and an opportunity for those lucky enough not to be directly affected by it to sit up and listen and understand.

I think that part of asking men to be quiet and listen is being cool when they do just that.

Yes. Beyond linking stuff women have written (like the Alex Press piece in - shudder - Vox yesterday) I've been restricting my thoughts to this thread, more or less

i get that. unfortunately, listening looks a LOT like the same old ignoring if men continue to post about xyz other thing and don't offer their support to "me too" posts (thank you btw)
i'm not trying to police other people's internet behavior or tell people what to do (i am not a natural prescriptivist), but part of listening (in regular non-internet conversation) is visibly/audibly acknowledging that the other person is saying something.

being cool is really overrated imo

in its way, being cool maintains the status quo

xxxp to Mordy, sure, but I'm not sure there was much in the way of listening going on? from what i could see the attitude was 'this is a women's issue, let them get on with it, ooh look the sky is a funny colour'. sure, men should be quiet and listen (and understand of course) but sexism is an issue that extends to everyone in society. it's in men's interests to support feminism. this exercise should work two-fold: it gives victims a platform to share their experiences with each other and show they're not alone; but it also presents the prevalent vastness of the problem to those who might be skeptical or unaware of it

fwiw the gay male 'community' (i've always rolled my eyes as i've never esp felt a part of it) has often properly been accused of having toxic attitudes toward lesbians and women in general, at least in the rank and file. That might have changed in the last 20 years; I can't really be sure.

A guy I know posted a sort of semi-enlightened thing that turned into him basically bragging about how he's always treated women the right way as a manager in his job, in personal contexts, etc. It was kind of lame of him but I decided not to get into the whole "calling out" thing which I think gets exhausting and counterproductive. He also used the "mothers and daughters" cliche, which a woman did call him out for. Although another female friend recently made the case to me that she doesn't mind guys doing that because (1) it gives men who might not otherwise be inclined to speak out at all a way in (2) in some cases it may be a sort of defensive thing that guys do because it's uncomfortable for them to be saying something.

I guess this is a place where I can say how much I appreciate a lot of the discussion in the 'no boys allowed!' thread. Discussion which I'm sure is greatly facilitated by the restriction of male voices.

This is a thing I find myself wanting to do a lot: just sit in the back of a room full of people who are not like me and who are discussing what it's like to share some commonality that I do not share with them and just listen.

a male friend of mine posted this and i think this is a good response from men:

"if i "like" your post here. i don't actually like what has happened to you. i hear you and believe you."

Extremely Online Allydom weirds me out tbh. many people who have truend out to be huge creeps also used that sort of language in very public and demonstrative ways.

xp I thought of posting something like that too, but I just had this gut feeling like, I really don't want to "collect likes" in any way shape or form on this one. I don't want to get a bunch of tiny ego hits from this. So I just liked a bunch of women's posts and hopefully the message of that is already clear.

He also used the "mothers and daughters" cliche, which a woman did call him out for.

Knowing all the Commandments of Righteous Crowdspeak sure can be trying...

I've blocked a friend/former lover for the gross shit he often posts about straight and gay women.

I didn't click a response on all of the statuses that came across my timeline because there were so many of them; if I'd clicked on all of them, I wouldn't have gotten any work done and I was afraid of missing some with the way Facebook sometimes hides information in your news feed. What I did instead was write a small post acknowledging that I had seen what was said and that we needed to use that information to fuel behavioral changes so that this doesn't reoccur 50 years from now with our generation's grandchildren; I also reposted a list of suggested modifications to your behavior written out by Nicole Stamp that's been going around. I will continue to repost things that I come across that I believe will push things in a positive direction. I apologize if this isn't enough but that's what I can do right now.

ps LL I didn't see yours for some reason, or I would have liked it.

need an option to turn off the "Like" function on some of your own posts - since it'll never be taken from the system as a whole - but beyond that I guess we just need to remind ourselves that social media is a great emancipatory tool for communication and support and a gross commodification of those things at the same time and just take people in the best faith we feel able to

xpost to simon h - there are so many cringe-inducing types like that on twitter, such a creepy vibe from them, it's not a huge step for a man who self-defines as the most wonderfully aware ally of all time to sound extremely patronising and tokenistic towards women. like patting his little dolls on the head.

i guess this is more personal but i don't feel so comfortable describing myself as a feminist, because of this type of person. i would say i support feminist views and feminism but as a man i figure i am responsible for instances of sexism, probably in ways that i'm not always aware of. but i find people behaving as tho they are beyond reproach, in any matter, p offputting.

moral confidence is difficult for me - i'm often kinda put off by it. i know that's partly some of my own issues of self and certainty, but equally i can't quite understand how people are so willing to reproach others - i start most things from the pov that i'm probably wrong. catholic upbringing maybe.

i often read like "woke" tweets and think "the behaviour you're describing is just human ignorance" - i guess some people who are less privileged are by nature more aware of ignorant or oblivious behaviour, but hardly all. most of the time i feel like our existence on this planet is a war between the maddening ignorance of the terminally oblivious and the sad neurosis of the constantly self-aware.

xp - it's ok i'm not keeping score :)

i really do feel relieved of a hellacious burden by speaking up at all. i felt the same way about taking up an instrument (a loud one, at that) as a grown woman. like, i'm here now. continuing to ignore me or pretend i am not here is no longer possible. i am too loud.
(and i am not actually very loud!)

i guess this is more personal but i don't feel so comfortable describing myself as a feminist, because of this type of person. i would say i support feminist views and feminism but as a man i figure i am responsible for instances of sexism, probably in ways that i'm not always aware of. but i find people behaving as tho they are beyond reproach, in any matter, p offputting.

yeah, this is where i'm at most of the time, thx for putting it into words

moral confidence is difficult for me - i'm often kinda put off by it. i know that's partly some of my own issues of self and certainty, but equally i can't quite understand how people are so willing to reproach others - i start most things from the pov that i'm probably wrong. catholic upbringing maybe.

yeah I feel this & hope a lot of ppl feel similarly, though I don't think it's a catholic thing. the need for moral purity distorts how ppl see things

fear of being perceived as a certain (undesirable) type of person for speaking up is a very effective tool of the oppressor imo

don't wanna be a complainer! be cool!

xp yes it can be turned into 'Why are you bothered about this when this issue doesn't affect you?'

i disagree. i think that the impulse not to "speak up" on social media is a good one. the virtue here is about changing your own behavior, or intervening in predation when the situation arises. there's no moral value in posting some variation on "hey fellow men this #metoo campaign is v important we must all speak out" etc. that kind of thing doesn't stop real behavior - it's just performative imo. xxp

no predator has ever in history been like wow i'd really like to touch this woman on the bus but now i remember this v passionate male ally told me on fb that wasn't cool any more

xpost to simon h - there are so many cringe-inducing types like that on twitter, such a creepy vibe from them, it's not a huge step for a man who self-defines as the most wonderfully aware ally of all time to sound extremely patronising and tokenistic towards women. like patting his little dolls on the head.

i guess this is more personal but i don't feel so comfortable describing myself as a feminist, because of this type of person. i would say i support feminist views and feminism but as a man i figure i am responsible for instances of sexism, probably in ways that i'm not always aware of. but i find people behaving as tho they are beyond reproach, in any matter, p offputting.

moral confidence is difficult for me - i'm often kinda put off by it. i know that's partly some of my own issues of self and certainty, but equally i can't quite understand how people are so willing to reproach others - i start most things from the pov that i'm probably wrong. catholic upbringing maybe.

i often read like "woke" tweets and think "the behaviour you're describing is just human ignorance" - i guess some people who are less privileged are by nature more aware of ignorant or oblivious behaviour, but hardly all. most of the time i feel like our existence on this planet is a war between the maddening ignorance of the terminally oblivious and the sad neurosis of the constantly self-aware.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:06 AM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thanks for this LG, i identify w/ a lot of what you wrote here

i agree that it is performative and cookie-hungry

the virtue here is about changing your own behavior, or intervening in predation when the situation arises.

yeah, otm

there are so many cringe-inducing types like that on twitter, such a creepy vibe from them, it's not a huge step for a man who self-defines as the most wonderfully aware ally of all time to sound extremely patronising and tokenistic towards women. like patting his little dolls on the head

Faraci was a good/terrible example of this iirc

yes, the real work for men happens IRL not on social media xp

marc loi, never forget

Extremely Online Allydom weirds me out tbh. many people who have truend out to be huge creeps also used that sort of language in very public and demonstrative ways.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE thing that inverted my brain about restorative justice and turned me into a weirdo about this shit. The literal most abusive person I've ever met has also the most obstreperous Twitter feed. I actually talked about his behaviour with some friends, who told me, "we are seeing more and more that the language and cause of restorative justice is being twisted and used by abusers."

I think I should take a break from thinking about this stuff because it's gotten to a point where I'm arguing for a "full decriminalization of sexual assault" on Facebook

A friend linked me to this the other day and it's very interesting: http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/why-ive-started-to-fear-my-fellow-social-justice-activists-20171013

I tried to write a "me too" post, admitting to the times I'd been abusive to others, talking about what I'd done to hold myself accountable, talking about what I'd done to hold my friends accountable when they'd been abusive-- my best friend raped somebody last year and it's been a difficult time-- but I couldn't admit to my own abuse without feeling like I was leaving myself open to persecution (it's far more complicated than anybody's attention span could withstand), and I couldn't post about my own allyship without feeling like it was performative

Talking about this stuff is agonizing

it is

so much otm above - i think a huge flaw with things right now is people assuming they're doing something just by screaming angry things on twitter, or even politely stating encouraging things. i mean if people are going to spend time there anyway then i guess by all means state the things you believe, but sometimes it feels as if people think the main battleground for change is this actually quite small social media tool.

many, many people i know don't use twitter and the discussions i have offline are far more civil and thoughtful, present company excepted.

also, more and more i feel like people who mean well on twitter are just amplifying the views of those they oppose. i saw breitbart in my feed for the first time this year because somebody was quoting a tweet of theirs and criticising it. i've prob mentioned this before but "banallmuslims" trended as a hashtag in the uk before and i clicked on it and almost all the tweets were people criticising the fact it was trending.

having said all that, i find it difficult to point myself in any one direction. i find it difficult to unite it with people, i always find problems with things or think that actually we all disagree about x, y and z. i'm aware that's a position of privilege in itself. i mean by modern definitions i have a disability, as someone with chronic illness, and i think to an extent that fuels a sort of deep independence which was prob there to begin with, to an extent.

also like, hashtags are just kind of stupid.

I only responded to one metoo post as it was from a relative

As to whether men would be better joining in the metoo conversation or keeping out of it and listening, or where, between those two behaviours, we should be, I don't know; I don't know what women want us to do; but feel like keeping out of it is the best way to avoid dragging arguments right now

many, many people i know don't use twitter and the discussions i have offline are far more civil and thoughtful, present company excepted.

i should say that i'm sure there are far worse discussions i could be having offline too - i just tend to socialise in a small circle of friends who are v liberal.

no predator has ever in history been like wow i'd really like to touch this woman on the bus but now i remember this v passionate male ally told me on fb that wasn't cool any more

― Mordy, Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:27 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

maybe not quite to that extent, but opening up the topic and making it accessible to men (via other men) might make them think about their own past behaviour with a view to changing their own everyday sexism

if men peer-pressure each other into sexist behaviour, surely it can work the other way round

I would like to post about my own experiences regarding abuse and assault but I'm going to have to do so on 77

I was thinking yesterday about what a decent progression of understanding others looks like, in this particular context but also in general. The end goal is to not harass or even offend others, but that's the thing you strive toward, not the thing on which you judge your success.

I'm wondering if there's a good formal list, or if I'm even cribbing from something I've read:
Acknowledging you have some attitudes and behaviors that are based in sexism and might be harassment
Accepting (and soliciting) feedback from others
Others feel comfortable giving feedback without soliciting it, and you accept it
Recognizing the reactions of others and realizing you've said or done something inappropriate
Being able to identify when your own thoughts and behaviors are coming from faulty conclusions and adjusting without feedback from others

no predator has ever in history been like wow i'd really like to touch this woman on the bus but now i remember this v passionate male ally told me on fb that wasn't cool any more

you know, i'm like you, mordy, i'm reading the posts and just listening and not saying anything, but your argument in favor of my practice is actually pushing me away from my practice, because the predators aren't all creeps on the bus -- some of them are people in my workplace who wrongly think that all their male co-workers know about and are on board with what they're doing, or don't know about but WOULD be on board with what they're doing.