Moneyball

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from the ap wire - On the bus ride back from Tucson on Saturday, A's manager Ken Macha had the driver pull into a Dairy Queen, where he paid for the team's treats. ``We all went in uniform and people looked at us like maybe we were a softball team,'' Macha said. ``I went to the counter and said 'I'm the coach of this team, please total everything up and give me the bill.' It was a little over $50. When I was 8, cones were 10 cents, so for 13 players it was $1.30.'' OF Nick Swisher said he ordered ``the biggest Blizzard I could get, with chocolate chip cookie dough.''

j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:51 (nineteen years ago) link

The best thing about my godawful Little League experiences was the Slushy Hut camped right outside the left field gate.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:55 (nineteen years ago) link

for us, it was sno-cones, graveyard flavor

The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Monday, 21 March 2005 04:38 (nineteen years ago) link

after i performed "material girl" at the fourth grade talent show my dad took me to the dq down the street and bought me a blizzard, they were brand new at the time, the big deal was you could hold them upside down and they wouldn't spill supposedly

j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 21 March 2005 05:06 (nineteen years ago) link

can we go back to "material girl" pls, blount?

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 21 March 2005 14:08 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm trying to figure out where ice cream appears in "Moneyball."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 21 March 2005 14:20 (nineteen years ago) link

It's in the Color of Moneyball Coloring Book insert!

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 21 March 2005 14:41 (nineteen years ago) link

the big deal was you could hold them upside down and they wouldn't spill supposedly

dude they still hold 'em upside down before they give 'em to ya.

it was all about the suicide soda, bros.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 March 2005 22:16 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah, but they are no longer "brand new".

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 22:52 (nineteen years ago) link

but they still hold 'em upside down!

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 02:23 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd like to know what Lil J Blount was wearing while performing "Material Girl" at his school talent show.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 03:07 (nineteen years ago) link

a cone bra and bicycle shorts.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 03:54 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd like to now know how I can have that image expunged from my brain.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 04:14 (nineteen years ago) link

dude, you asked.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 04:32 (nineteen years ago) link

how I expected the sentence to read:
after i performed "material girl" at the fourth grade talent show my dad took me to the dq down the street and we had a discussion about not getting beaten up by the older kids

milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 05:09 (nineteen years ago) link

haha i wore my church clothes. technically my handpuppet performed (lip-synched) "material girl". i lost to a group of kids who lip-synched "can't fight this feeling anymore" which is some bush v. gore bullshit. our elementary school only went to fourth grade so we ruled the roast. plus they were still shoving that "free to be you and me" garbage down our throats.

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 05:21 (nineteen years ago) link

plus they were still shoving that "free to be you and me" garbage down our throats.

Fuck, them's fighting words.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 06:14 (nineteen years ago) link

technically my handpuppet performed (lip-synched) "material girl".

that's even worse. "my handpuppet."

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:33 (nineteen years ago) link

I like to think that Blount was doing the crossword with his other hand and looking pensive.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 23:56 (nineteen years ago) link

one month passes...
I AM FINALLY READING THE BOOK. IT IS FANTABULOUS.

Really, it is great (like duuuuuuuuuuuuh), and I am getting a little bit of the "oh wow" recognition thing, seeing the names of players mentioned here getting love on the major league level (cf. Francis, Grienke, Greene, Adams, Teahen, and, of course, Jeremy "Chair-Toss Inspiring" Bonderman). MORE MONEYBALL DAMMIT!

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 16 May 2005 00:27 (eighteen years ago) link

Athletics: Main asset from Hudson trade shut down

by Fanball Staff - Fanball.com
Monday, May 16, 2005

News
When the Athletics traded Tim Hudson to the Braves this past offseason, general manager Billy Beane insisted that left handed pitching prospect Dan Meyer be included in the deal. After a 1-3 record, 6.62 ERA, and noticeable loss in velocity at Triple-A Sacramento, Meyer was shut down indefinitely late last week, according to Baseball America.

Views
When pitcher Rich Harden went out with a strained oblique injury, chances are some people in prospect circles were calling for Meyer as a possible replacement. While it was unlikely the Athletics would go that route even if health wasn't an issue, it's that much less likely now. The team is setting no timetable for his return and will take their time to discover the reason for Meyer's lack of success this season.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 16 May 2005 19:47 (eighteen years ago) link

what exactly does shut down mean????

moneyball is indeed amazing. it should be 5000000000 pages long.

i'm reading ball four for the trillionth time right now. good god it's amazing.

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Monday, 16 May 2005 19:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Meyer sidelined with a "tired" rotator cuff

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 16 May 2005 19:56 (eighteen years ago) link

i couldn't find it at the bookstore i was at today, so i bought the '86 mets book instead.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 16 May 2005 20:14 (eighteen years ago) link

That "Swingin' A's" thread title is supposed to sarcastic, right?

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 16 May 2005 20:37 (eighteen years ago) link

They're swingin', in their fashion. And notoriously slow starters, albeit not this slow.

Be sure to dive right into that vomit-caked Mets' wives opening chapter, Stenc.

It's been so long since I read MB I don't recall Greinke in it.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 16 May 2005 20:44 (eighteen years ago) link

I was at the game on Saturday and I'll be seeing the A's/Sox tomorrow. Lots and lots of pain.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 16 May 2005 21:54 (eighteen years ago) link

I think the A's record might reflect their strength of schedule: NYYx2, CHISOX, BAL, and their second series against BOS starts tonight.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 16 May 2005 22:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Morb: Grienke (& a lot of the other folks I mentioned) are named in the chapter about the 2002 draft.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 11:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Chicago White Stockings owner William A. Hulbert, 1876:
"It is ridiculous to pay ballplayers $2,000 a year. Especially when the $800 boys often do just as well."

HENCE MY NEW TEAM NICKNAME

Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 20 May 2005 16:45 (eighteen years ago) link

hey morbs, just finished reading your copy, thanks.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 23:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Cool... one of my fave chapters is still Joe Morgan, Stranger to Reality.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 May 2005 12:08 (eighteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...
New Michael Lewis chat at BP:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=129


"I'm having a hard time keeping up with the literature that attempts to refute Moneyball. (Much of the time I can't figure out why they bother to refute a thing that was never said--say, for example, that the Atlanta Braves are not very successful, or that there are not other ways to win baseball games than the way Oakland wins baseball games.)...

"Billy Beane had no clue what the book was about until he saw the galleys--and got upset with me. In fairness to Joe Morgan--though why start now?--a lot of sports books are as-told-to affairs. He probably has never been fully exposed to the old fashioned idea of the author."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 12:29 (eighteen years ago) link

on the anti-moneyball book mentioned in that interview, "scout's honor":

Book Description
Stats vs. Scouts. Math vs. Makeup. Computers vs. Commuters. College vs. High-School. The debate is a new one in baseball, and it has recently taken on a life of its own. Ever since Michael Lewis’ best-seller Moneyball arrived on the scene, and spurred by the recent World Series victory by the sabermetric advocate Boston Red Sox, the dispute about the best way to build a professional baseball team has raged out of control - until now. In this fascinating and insightful look into what criteria major and minor league baseball scouts use to determine talent, Scout’s Honor shines a bright light on the job done by ‘old-school’ scouts and their killer instincts. The author uses the success of the Atlanta Braves as the focal point for a mesmerizing investigation into the debate of stats versus scouts, and why, if it’s a successful franchise you’re after, there is no debate about the bravest way to build a winning team.
"What makes Scout’s Honor so great is that it brings us into the world of those who determine successful big leaguers by looking into the future, not by looking back at spreadsheets and stats. Now that takes talent. ‘Old-school’ wins, literally. This book is a worthy foil to the Moneyballers." - Lyle Spencer

John (jdahlem), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 14:33 (eighteen years ago) link

"What makes Scout’s Honor so great is that it brings us into the world of those who determine successful big leaguers by looking into the future, not by looking back at spreadsheets and stats.

WTF, that doesn't make the least bit of sense. I guess they're arguing that "stats" = "numbers compiled in the past" and therefore they have limited predictive value ... which still makes no sense. Never mind, trying to interpret these garbage arguments isn't worth our time.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 14:37 (eighteen years ago) link

The Seattle Times' sabermetric stats column:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2002334979_sabermetrics14.html

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 20:09 (eighteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...
Nate Silver's disappointed (but not entirely dismissive) review of "Scout's Honor":

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4216


And the Baseball Prospectus crew's forthcoming analysis of the Red Sox' use of smartball (Goldman said last night it should beout in early September):

http://www.workman.com/catalog/pagemaker.cgi?0761140182


It'll be very interesting to see the awareness level and reception this book gets in the sports media and baseball industry.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 14 July 2005 12:46 (eighteen years ago) link

"what led the Sox to understand Johnny Damon’s true value and give him the ideal place in the batting order"

??????

are they honestly gonna fucking argue that foulke's better than rivera, or are they talking abt usage?

i'd like to get this for insider info, but i don't think i could stand any sox-worshipping. i know goldman's a yankees fan and he'll probably do a pretty good job at being objective and whatnot, but i think i should've written this book.

silver's major beef w/ scout's honor (its anti-moneyball polemicism) is the one and only reason i'm not interested in the book.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 14 July 2005 13:05 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, it sounds like a serious & thoughtful inquiry in to the braves system would have actually been pretty interesting, but when the writer comes in to the project w/ an axe to grind...not helpful.

jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Thursday, 14 July 2005 13:10 (eighteen years ago) link

BP is not gonna indulge in Sox-worshipping, and if you read Goldman on yesnetwork.com his being "a Yankee fan" is irrelevant. Yes, I wd imagine Mo-Foulke is they "about usage."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 14 July 2005 13:25 (eighteen years ago) link

it sure looks awful gushy in that blurb. i mean there's nothing esoteric about any of epstein's actual moves, they're just insanely creative. it'd be nice to gain an understanding of the actual system they have in place & maybe pick up some non-news tidbits and gossip, but i don't need anyone explaining to me why damon bats leadoff or foulke is a great pitcher or why it wasn't generally a good idea for the sox to bunt etc.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 14 July 2005 13:31 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, you're oversimplifying what the content of the book is likely to be, John; blurbs do that too. Theo's priorities may not be 'esoteric' but are all too frequently unpursued by most MLB clubs (eg, Willie Randolph impressed that Reyes has "a lot of hits").

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 14 July 2005 13:52 (eighteen years ago) link

I wonder if it lay as much bare as Moneyball did which (unlike Scout's Honor it sounds like) was really pretty revealing about the A's strategies and the internal dialogue surrounding them.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 14 July 2005 14:26 (eighteen years ago) link

sure as hell doesn't look like it. it's set up as an outside-looking-in analysis of epstein's pitching & offensive systems and various acquisitions.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 14 July 2005 14:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Don't prejudge or anything, d00d!

Don't forget the Red Sox to some degree took more performance-analysis-related shit than the A's: the bullpen-by-committee [sic] feeding frenzy in early 2003, the hiring of Bill James, the defense issues around the Nomar trade, etc.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 14 July 2005 14:36 (eighteen years ago) link

goldman apparently read this and wanted to set the record straight:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4224

i don't think i could stomach it.

also
"Jim Baker on why star players shouldn’t hurl themselves into the stands"

fuck that shit. i mean seroiusly, what the fuck. ppl seem to have forgotten just how important that out was.

John (jdahlem), Friday, 15 July 2005 17:28 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/baseballs-hegelian-dialectic/

Shanks then ends the book with a direct assault on Moneyball:


There are two differences that set the A's and the other 'Moneyballers' apart from the rest of baseball. First, their use of statistics is extreme, believing that on-base percentage is the primary indication of big-league success, and that stats override makeup in determining who will make it to the show. Also, speed and defense are trivial. It's all about OBP.

Secondly, due to their financial restrictions, the A's claim that if they're going to spend money on draft picks, they must not miss. They feel the best way to get a value pick is to emphasize college players and to almost ignore talent from the high school level.

(i don't know what's said after this in the piece so i might be redundant here)

shanks is essentially arguing with michael lewis here. this may've been the model put forth in Moneyball (but i'm not certain and it's almost certainly even further oversimplified here), and it might well've been the a's model at the time, but it's got almost nothing to do w/ how the a's have won games over the past 3 years (or drafted this year). obv central thesis = finding undervalued quantities. those quantities of the moment, in beane's view, seem to be defense, and high school arms. beane's ability to adapt and the fluidity of his sytem are things everyone should be able to respect, and shanks not even bothering to take a deeper, or at least current, look at what's going on in oakland is telling.

John (jdahlem), Friday, 15 July 2005 17:46 (eighteen years ago) link

obv central thesis = finding undervalued quantities.

Yes! in the book (and in your friendly neighborhood MBA-program), this is referred to as "exploiting inefficiencies in the market".

gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 15 July 2005 18:06 (eighteen years ago) link

>ppl seem to have forgotten just how important that out was.

I seem to recall NYY & BOS both made the playoffs comfortably, ie not so important. And Jeetz was lionized for a week.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 15 July 2005 18:20 (eighteen years ago) link


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