Throwing Muses: C-o-D

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a nice surpise: i found a very old mix tape last night with two t.m. tracks, cottonmouth and dizzy. i've been inwardly humming the later all day. i'm feeling very tender towards them as a result, and feeling very bad that none of my t.m./kristin hersh cds survived a particularly ferocious, bankruptcy-driven purge some years ago.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 30 April 2004 16:45 (twenty years ago) link

eleven months pass...

What an odd thread. The impeccable first half of University (second half falters a bit but it's not terrible by any means) and the entirety of The Grotto is killing me today. I haven't heard Red Heaven and I still haven't listened to Hunkpapa in full but everything else is classic to the umpteenth power.

― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:56 (nineteen years ago) link

four months pass...

God, I'd almost forgotten about that reunion album...

Thoughts on: Throwing Muses (s/t 2003) vs. Red Heaven vs. 50 Foot Wave - Golden Ocean ?

I've still not heard TM2003 or Golden Ocean ffs. I guess I've been wary, because I'm real picky about the TM output I do like. Ignoring the more average (by their standards, not others) albums (Hunkpapa, Limbo, University, for KH solo I dropped off after Strange Angels sadly) makes them seem SO much more legendary in my mind.

Relative prolificity (and Kirsten not losing the plot) has I'd agree, really hurt their standing compared to other similarly awesome bands.

― fandango (fandango), Saturday, 20 August 2005 09:22 (eighteen years ago) link

50 foot wave >> the 2003 TM album

― jimmy glass (electricsound), Saturday, 20 August 2005 11:40 (eighteen years ago) link

(in sound quality at the very very least)

― jimmy glass (electricsound), Saturday, 20 August 2005 11:40 (eighteen years ago) link

I agree with Charlie: it's all about that.

― the pinefox, Saturday, 20 August 2005 14:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Aw, come on, ES! I love the fact that the S/T album is like her Seamonsters, in a sense. (And, yeah, I like it a scootch better than Golden Ocean, tho "Clara Bow" beats all takers.)

― David R. (popshots75`), Saturday, 20 August 2005 14:22 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm a bit more fond of 2003 s/t than Golden Ocean -- although the latter's production is better.

― Ian Riese-Moraine: a casualty of social estrangement. (Eastern Mantra), Saturday, 20 August 2005 20:23 (eighteen years ago) link

TM03 beats Golden Ocean but only because of the drumming.

― kyle (akmonday), Saturday, 20 August 2005 20:33 (eighteen years ago) link

"Not Too Soon" sounds totally out of place on _The Real Ramona_. It sticks out like a polished diamond in a pile of tarnished silver dollars. And it's Tanya's best TM offering, by a wide country hectare.

Question.

Does anyone else, anywhere, ever, dislike "Not Too Soon" and feel, much like I do, that it's the one track that keeps The Real Ramona from being solid start-to-finish?

I much, much prefer "Green" and "The River," Tanya-wise.

― babyalive (babyalive), Saturday, 20 August 2005 22:37 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm liking throwing muses more than i used to. i don't think they work as an album band (not that they're a "singles band," but shuffle play has really helped me listen to their songs individually and isolate lyrics and parts i like, which is harder when slogging through a 45-minute LP).

― s/c (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 20 August 2005 23:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, Sophia, you know how I feel on it. "Not Too Soon" was the first TM song I heard, so I'm quite attached to it. I actually haven't listened to The Real Ramona in about a year or so, but the only song I don't remember liking as much was "Two-Step", but it just seems weird for it to come after "Say Goodbye". I should listen in again. I really want to hear "Hook in Her Head" now. If I could only get Ethan away from playing Green Day on my stereo right now...

― Ian Riese-Moraine: a casualty of social estrangement. (Eastern Mantra), Sunday, 21 August 2005 00:21 (eighteen years ago) link

I love "Not Too Soon" but I'll admit it is a little out of place on the LP.

― nickn (nickn), Sunday, 21 August 2005 01:50 (eighteen years ago) link

one year passes...

As I revealed on the Belly thread on NU ILM last week, I'm only now discovering Throwing Muses. Having listened to The Real Ramona and University, I can admit to being quite impressed with Hersh's interpolation of odd textures and femi-literary themes into three-minute pop songs on the former.

Should I buy the first album? Its reputation scares me, slightly.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 22 February 2007 23:03 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh, suck it up & buy it.

― David R., Thursday, 22 February 2007 23:13 (seventeen years ago) link

BUY

― fandango, Thursday, 22 February 2007 23:19 (seventeen years ago) link

This is scarier:

When friends turn psychotic, I withdraw. I haven't found black leotards sexy since I broke up with Sheila in 1962. I'm rarely persuaded that verbal dissociation reflects any social problems but the poet's own. So while I'm happy to grant the originality and even craft of Kristen Hersh's quavery free-form folk-punk, I'd do the same for the art of H.P. Lovecraft, Anaïs Nin, or Diamanda Galas. Fans of whom will pay more mind to Hersh's buzz than I do. C -- Christgau

Thankfully the two albums I own sound nothing like this.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 22 February 2007 23:20 (seventeen years ago) link

1> "Furious" is the best TM track evar
2> Kate's first post to this thread is her best post evar

― libarian, Thursday, 22 February 2007 23:49 (seventeen years ago) link

absolutely buy it!

i don't even know what to say about that christgau quote.

― Surmounter, Thursday, 22 February 2007 23:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Disappointed by the lack of love for Hunkpapa on this thread. But then there's no reason why it should hook deeply into other people's lives like it does mine.

Otherwise I mostly agree with all that above.

― DavidM, Friday, 23 February 2007 00:19 (seventeen years ago) link

i LOVE hunkpapa! always thought it was underappreciated

― Surmounter, Friday, 23 February 2007 00:19 (seventeen years ago) link

if devil's roof isn't a good pop song i don't know what it is

― Surmounter, Friday, 23 February 2007 00:24 (seventeen years ago) link

not to mention mania

― Surmounter, Friday, 23 February 2007 00:47 (seventeen years ago) link

hunkpapa has great songs, but the production is terrible. mania is a great example... you hear that live and it blows your mind, but the hunkpapa version is so defanged.

― f. hazel, Friday, 23 February 2007 00:55 (seventeen years ago) link

i dunno i like the production on mania album version, no qualms

what's wrong with hunkpapa's productin? think it's just fine

― Surmounter, Friday, 23 February 2007 00:59 (seventeen years ago) link

Hunkpapa's the only one of the original TM albums that I never warmed to...will have to revisit at some point as I can't remember much about it now. And yeah, Xgau's take on them is one of his flat-out-wrong moments. I suspect that he disliked something he projected onto them...have to admit that when I first read about them (can't remember where, but it wasn't RC) I was lead to expect something annoying.

I've never been a huge fan of Hersh's folky side, but for some reason her solo Sunny Border Blue (which skirts that territory) has turned into the album of hers that I play the most. I think that back in the 90's, House Tornado was my favorite, and I definitely spent a *long* time trying to figure out some of the guitar parts on that one.

― dlp9001, Friday, 23 February 2007 01:28 (seventeen years ago) link

i know!

i was gonna be like

okay that review is just WRONG

cuz it is.

― Surmounter, Friday, 23 February 2007 01:30 (seventeen years ago) link

wrongness combined with arrogance sucks

― Surmounter, Friday, 23 February 2007 01:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Alfred, you need the first Muses album. I hate to jump and say it's better than the other albums, but it sure seems like it counts more, it's more emotional. It's just too important to miss. God I can just hear "Call Me" in my mind right now. The entire album is awe-inspiring from start to finish. I remember when I first heard them I thought they were strange, not annoying but strange, and then I began to understand there were hooks in that strangeness, and I was hooked. Maybe that's why I still like the first album the most because it was such a shock going from a non-Muses world to one in which they existed. They were truly one of a kind.

Come on folks - back me up here, isn't the first album the best?

As for Hunkpapa, it occurs to me F.Hazel is exactly on the money about the stale production. That's got a lot to do with why that album is so inferior despite several fine tracks which were so much more fun live (Mania was my fave btw). But at the time I never thought much about production so I could never put a finger on what was wrong there. By golly, that's it!

― Bimble, Friday, 23 February 2007 05:34 (seventeen years ago) link

first album's my favorite, with 'chains changed' ep as my aux favorite

'house tornado' / 'fat skier' are in the footsteps of the debut, 'hunkpapa' was the first attempt to simplify the production & density of songwriting to go pop, and it's got many great songs, but in hindsight it's a warmup for 'ramona'

still love the 2003 s/t muses reunion, most of the strongest songs are in the 2nd half

― Milton Parker, Friday, 23 February 2007 05:44 (seventeen years ago) link

i'd put house tornado on the same level as the first album, and they both have great followup EPs as well... chains changed and the fat skier. university and limbo are really great too! i probably prefer them to the real ramona and red heaven. as albums. every one of their albums has great songs.

i need to get the newer eponymous one and see how it sounds. the new kristin hersh i'm not sure about yet. loved the grotto however.

― f. hazel, Friday, 23 February 2007 06:12 (seventeen years ago) link

bimble i had no idea!

i seem to be in the minority then, liking the production on Hunkpapa - I did used to have a problem with the production of House Tornado.

i've only heard bits and pieces of the first album - i know. the real ramona is beautiful and i like limbo a lot. i need to revisit the thick of university - bright yellow gun has a way of steamrolling you through to Snake.

the 2003 Throwing Muses is awesome.

― Surmounter, Friday, 23 February 2007 06:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Man, I need to get The Real Ramona. Hunkpapa was the first one I heard, and I liked it, though "Fall Down" is the only song on it that I really love, and there's nothing on it with quite the same power as, say, "Call Me." But to be fair, I could say that about a lot of albums I love.

― clotpoll, Friday, 23 February 2007 07:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Should I buy the first album? Its reputation scares me, slightly.

And get the In A Doghouse version (2 CDs), which has Chains Changed and some demos and some newly recorded (at the time) stuff.

― nickn, Friday, 23 February 2007 08:07 (seventeen years ago) link

Definite classic.

I love The Real Ramona, Limbo and their comeback album, but my favourite of all were The Fat Skier and House Tornado. Never really liked Hunkpapa, perhaps I should give it another listen.

― Xochipilli, Friday, 23 February 2007 16:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Note to self: hit eBay / illegal channels of procurement to find Red Heaven w/ live disc & the House Tornado / Fat Skier twofer. & maybe dust off the TM CDs you just unpacked there, spanky.

― David R., Friday, 23 February 2007 16:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Don't see anything wrong with the Xgau quote. He doesn't like the music, and even if that dislike stems from something he's projecting onto it, he's still entitled to his opinon, which he articulates clearly. The association of the Muses/Hersh with Lovecraft/Nin/Galas doesn't seem entirely off-base to me (Galas being the biggest stretch), and I say that as a fan of all of 'em.

Anyway, I'm with those who rate the first album (and the even better Chains Changed EP) slightly higher than even the best of what followed.

― Pye Poudre, Friday, 23 February 2007 17:05 (seventeen years ago) link

There are definitely a few singular moments on the 1st album that need to be heard. That screamed "Welcome home!" still gives me goosebumps, even though I know it's coming.

― dlp9001, Friday, 23 February 2007 17:16 (seventeen years ago) link

milton's post speaks for me. as far as faves go.

also otm is live mania blowing away album version. but this is true of most throwing muses songs. one of the great live rock bands of my time. 12 inch with live mania and santa claus b-sides is one of the most invigorating things i own. santa claus easily in my top ten of muses songs. maybe top five. ahhh, it kills. first saw them live right before house tornado came out and i should have carved the date on my arm. (there is a tape i made of that show around somewhere. as well as radio IDs they did for me and my radio show. never been more petrified of meeting people in my life. i was a wreck.)

― scott seward, Friday, 23 February 2007 17:30 (seventeen years ago) link

By some strange twist of fate, I saw the Muses live more times than any other band. I don't know how to explain this except that they toured a lot and I went anytime they did a show within 2 hours of where I lived. I talked to them a few times, they seemed like nice people.

For some reason I never got around to getting the In The Doghouse thing. I had the demos on a cassette, so I didn't feel the urgency, but I always planned to get it someday. Wanted to kick myself when it was mentioned here. I don't recall the demos being all that earth shattering, though.

― Bimble, Saturday, 24 February 2007 18:03 (seventeen years ago) link

i love how they leave such room for re-investigation.

― Surmounter, Sunday, 25 February 2007 02:54 (seventeen years ago) link

OK so i'm listening to the 2003 Throwing Muses and i'm on a deadline but i'm getting into it so much i had to post.

anyone empthasize? the burn of the guitars, with the harmonies. yum.

― Surmounter, Saturday, 3 March 2007 13:05 (seventeen years ago) link

I find I like TM overall much more now than I did "at the time." I quite liked Hunkpapa when it came out, but never ran across anyone else who seemed to (odd since I was living in Boston). And Real Ramona had those great, great singles.

Last year I finally got around to listening to Sleater-Kinney. I'm not sure I should be making any connections, but when I did start listening to TM again, I found it much more rewarding -- I was getting something out of Hersh and not just standing against the wall, watching the crazy boho chick.

― mitya, Saturday, 3 March 2007 18:47 (seventeen years ago) link

lol... vast difference though! sleater has never been my cup of tea...

― Surmounter, Saturday, 3 March 2007 19:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Updates...

I bought Hunkpapa a few days ago...I will agree with F. Hazel and bimble that the production: when it's not oppressive (I totally understand why "Mania" would kill live; the album version made me wonder why Hersh is yelling so goddamn much) it's vulgar (the synth tinkles that underpin a depressing number of songs). "Dragonhead" strikes me as second-rate Donnelly, a rehearsal for the twinkle-twinkle-little-star moments on Star and King.

The best tracks: "Dizzy"s killer hook, "Fall Down" (the line about showing a girl her stitches and starting a rock and roll band is unexpectedly poignant), and "No Parachutes."

Still no pox on The Real Ramona[i/] or [i]University.

Next: the s/t, yes?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 22:01 (seventeen years ago) link

mmm... Dizzy and Red Shoes are all I need, but I needs 'em good.

― rogermexico., Tuesday, 13 March 2007 22:41 (seventeen years ago) link

short answer: classic
long answer: ...yeah, still classic

― get bent, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 16:23 (seventeen years ago) link

The Tom of 2001 could easily get a job with the Guardian, writing like that.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 16:24 (seventeen years ago) link

one month passes...

I DON'T REMEMBER
I DON't REMEMBER
IF I SAW GOD HERE OR NOT

― Noodle Vague, Monday, 30 April 2007 01:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Hhahahahahaha! You know it! Don't make me pull out my CD's!

― Bimble, Monday, 30 April 2007 01:35 (seventeen years ago) link

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