Is the American Left Adrift?

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I still feel that you are rephrasing my view more sweepingly than I would say it. I am not saying that identity politics is necessarily a negative thing, or that on balance it does more harm than good in terms of large progressive political movements. I do think it has the potential to get overly fragmented. This is based on impressions, things I've read casually, conversations I've had, rather than any close study of the issue. (Considering the massive size of some demonstrations in recent years, it's clear that many smaller groups do link up for larger causes.)

I'll have think about it. It's not something I have sorted out.

The point about us living in an incresingly fragmented world is of course true.

(FWIW, I am not quite willing to call myself a leftist. I'm more of a left-leaning liberal than a true leftist. But a lot of what the left says makes more sense to me that what I see from any other area of the political spectrum. Not that I am asking to be let off the hook on this issue because of that, but I'm just saying, for the purposes of this thread, I don't think I speak as an American leftist.)

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 12:57 (nineteen years ago) link

okay, i'm just saying that the overlapping identities of people in 2004 America ARE overly fragmented - not that they have the potential to be - and activism around identity politics is a positive reaction to this. sorry if i exaggerated what you were saying, i was just trying to figure out what you were saying in the first place. i still don't understand what derrick means when he says that people define themselves a certain way, and then imagine that that act of self-definition constitutes political activism. i suppose it would depend on what the self-definition consists of (shouting into an empty field? creating a reading group? joining a nonprofit organization that addresses these issues?). i agree that simply writing women spelled with a y is not really "activism" but beyond that i don't get why that's being singled out here, especailly as it pertains to an unmoored "American left" - (and sundar's question is important here - what is that? has it ever existed? i think it's always been slightly imaginary but probably began its modern imaginings alongside the labor movement of the turn of the last century) (don't forget that organized labor and the civil rights movement were not exactly best friends at all times)

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 14:14 (nineteen years ago) link

don't forget that organized labor and the civil rights movement were not exactly best friends at all times

This is true, historically. But seen in retrospect, they both fit in with that broad American liberal tradition I was talking about up above. Which I think is also part of the answer to this identity politics vs. ideological politics problem -- even if the specific interests of, say, reproductive rights activists, queer activists, labor organizers, environmental activists, etc. don't overlap or are even sometimes seemingly at odds, they are all still part of the general movement of democratic liberalism over the past few centuries. But somehow democratic liberalism ends up as everyone's bogeyman -- it didn't do enough, it hasn't done enough, George Washington owned slaves. I think the democratic liberal tradition -- not just political but also intellectual and artistic -- needs some serious defending right now, and it's not getting it. In the United States, at least, a profound ignorance about our own history is allowing conservatives and Christian fundamentalists to more or less rewrite the Constitution after the fact, even without amendments (since who actually reads the Constitution anyway?).

I'm not saying that whatever New Left or Neo-neo-liberalism emerges has to be some kind of back-to-Rousseau movement, but the Renaissance and Enlightenment -- for all their flaws, compromises and betrayed revolutions -- laid some important foundations that are going to start cracking if they're not tended to. I think the left made a mistake in throwing out the Dead White Males. They need to be reclaimed, alongside Ghandi and King and all the other dead men and women of all colors who collectively liberated more people over the past 300 years than any army ever. Or so it seems to me.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 19:28 (nineteen years ago) link

we still haven't dealt with the decline of the nation-state as organizing political category

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:25 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh yeah, how could we have missed that.

Dan I. (Dan I.), Thursday, 30 September 2004 15:34 (nineteen years ago) link

are you kidding? it's the defining feature of 21st century politics!

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 30 September 2004 15:40 (nineteen years ago) link

i've been thinking of these things a lot. i've always been political and used to be much more activist, but am growing hazier on actions and absolutes. of course i'm very biased and not as informed as some of you perhaps, but i always thought the ultimate problem with the left is there ultimate goals aren't necessarily of power. if you look at who's powerful or who's rich or who's famous it's often people who put those goals before all else - how they get there is secondary. that's makes them extremely effective and unified. if your primary goals are more humanitary or experiential or philosophical and secondarily to power in order to be effectual, you can never compete.

so the question is do you want to play that game? it gets very dirty very fast. strangely enough i know of a couple who's marriage is in trouble because of one them working for moveon and is getting scarier and scarier the more entrenched in politics she gets. i like to think of tracer's scenario of people just out there doing it on a personal/community level - no matter who's in power (though of course their work gets easier or harder depending on who is). maybe i'm just more focused on being a good person and doing what you can well instead of doing ugly things that might be for the 'greater good'.

you just can't call defeat because your man doesn't make office. there are a million other things that make up your day.

lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Thursday, 30 September 2004 18:50 (nineteen years ago) link

To respond to the thread title: Yes I had been, but I'm back on course. thx.

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 30 September 2004 18:51 (nineteen years ago) link

if your primary goals are more humanitary or experiential or philosophical and secondarily to power in order to be effectual, you can never compete.

This is one of the central conundrums of effective left/liberal politics in America right now. If the underlying principles of left/liberalism include humanism and broad distribution of power, then betraying those principles in order to get into office to support those principles is a morally dubious proposition. I've got this recurring metaphor of a football game, where one team wants to win but within the framework of the game -- with rules, referees, etc. -- and the other team comes out with machine guns and shoots everyone on the field and pays off the refs. If part of the argument we're having is about whether we need the rules and referees, then you can only make the case for it by playing by those rules. But how do you do that when you're playing Karl Rove and Dick Cheney, who think rules are for pussies and chumps?

I don't know. I don't think the Democrats have figured it out yet either.

spittle (spittle), Thursday, 30 September 2004 19:25 (nineteen years ago) link

(oops, that was by me -- this workstation still has my old ID cached, I guess)

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 30 September 2004 19:30 (nineteen years ago) link

ten years pass...
four years pass...

On November 30, 1999, activists shut down the World Trade Organization meetings in Seattle. The protests were a thrilling moment during bleak times for the socialist left. Now, years of resistance are finally paying off. https://t.co/38i77jMzf4 @DougHenwood

— Jacobin (@jacobinmag) November 30, 2019

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 1 December 2019 02:07 (four years ago) link

two months pass...

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