Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

'This woman is hurting. I will heal her with my listening and then we will have healing sex and I will undo the wrongs of these other, evil men."

i.e. the Clapton/Mayer guitar god wing of musicians

btw there are elements of trad masculinity, 'performative' or not, that linger in gay culture specifically, and I enjoy some of them

(not pup play)

― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, October 13, 2017 11:19 AM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i mean also this kind of abuse isn't exclusive to masculinity either, i use it almost as shorthand for a set of behaviors that tend recreate themselves through generations of men

I have read many theories on Twitter ("men in positions of power drop names deliberately to show you all that you'll lose if you rat them out") that are just preposterous.

i think this is incorrect btw, i think this is not a theory but a fact of life. for example all of these women coming forward mentioning how Weinstein would mention all his did for certain actresses, the implication being their careers were in the balance...

i would suggest a) Weinstein never did anything *positive* for anyone careerwise, bc those he cited were already at a level or in a position where their trajectory couldn't be stopped, and b) he definitely boxed out others who turned him down or protested. if anyone in the latter group made it, it was because they found their way through Hollywood on their own and didn't let him stop them no matter what he did.

The DUI thing wasn't even an analogy, really! I mean, it was in my head, but I was just stating that I wished "creepy behaviour" could be de-stigmatized, and used DUI as an example of something that was just as commonplace, more harmful, but somehow less stigmatized

I find fgti's foucaultian contention that "power" differentials always exist in sexual relationships distressing. It's "true" to an extent, but it shouldn't matter if there is communication and trust. In that case you are experiencing something "with" someone; it's not two people trying to get things from one another.

But that definitely won't work if people are too drunk to communicate with one another. So yeah, drunken hookups are not good if you want to minimize the possibility of unknowingly exploiting someone.

sorry for characterizing it as an analogy, fgti!

xxp (his did=he did)

you can probably see a pattern of performers whose careers seemed to be going places but were halted in place or never got going. Claire Forlani is actually a very good example, she was for a couple of years in many, many projects and was a memorable presence. You have to wonder what HW did.

DUI is a good analogy for this danger.

they feel some kind of urge

possibly so. they also have brains, and perhaps even a sense that other people are not toys, and responsibility for how their urges affect other people

i mean, i'm a dude. i'm aware of what having an erection does to one's mental clarity. yet we are more than our urges. specifically planning and targeting vulnerable people to assuage one's hard-on is fucked up and sociopathic. it may be common but that doesn't make it something that should be destigmatized

sorry for characterizing it as an analogy, fgti!

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Friday, October 13, 2017 6:24 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm guilty of the same, apols

@ nomar. I'm not denying that Weinstein did that exact thing. I'm just saying that I don't think this is the root cause of why men in positions of power practice name-dropping.

Or maybe it is? As I stated above, when I was in a room once with [a famous gay actor in his 50s], [a famous gay author in his 60s], [a famous gay composer in his 70s] and [a highly accomplished gay academic in his late 40s], and they all had lovers younger than me (I was 29 at the time), and were casually talking about how Marc Jacobs had his secretary arrange for trade to appear at his hotel room every night, I couldn't help but wonder, "what comes first? Is it the accumulation of power that allows men to feel comfortable exploiting their agency to affect sexual relationships with people younger than them? Or is it the desire for sexual relationships with people younger than them that causes men to accumulate power?"

Sorry if I'm posting too much

White knight as one to heal and help a vulnerable woman is somewhat reductive to me. IME any attempts to fix anyone come from not being able to fix myself completely and not accepting I'm flawed. It's nothjng to do with heroics for me. I've learned to not bother trying to fix anyone cuz it fucking sucks for all concerned

don't apologize fgti you're bringing a totally different and valuable perspective in

@ Treeship, I think Foucault and I filter our "there is not such thing as a sexual relationship without a power imbalance" conclusion through a gay lens.

@ mookieproof, I'm of the opinion that all men's actions, and capitalism as a whole, are entirely the result of The Possibility Of A Boner.

Gay space communism sounds fun, sign me up please. And absolutely agree that fgti's perspective is thought-provoking and valuable.

Anyway more anecdata: male friend of mine (childhood playground buddy, high school classmate, occasional bandmate), roughly my age, so 45-47. In general a socially liberal, intellectually nerdy, feminist-allied, social-justice-enthusiast Sensitive New Age Guy, more or less like me. Nontoxic.

Anyways he's become a father recently. I got him to come out to a divey bar, bought us both a lot of bourbon, and we were shooting the shit as we normally do (catching up on people from the old neighborhood, trading in-jokes, talking culture and music and such). I tried to draw him out (gently) on parenthood and how it feels - how it might rearrange one's priorities, what it might do to one's social life, whether it alters one's general perspective on the universe.

It was like pulling teeth.

Some guy friendships just seem to take on a structure that constrains interaction within safe boundaries. Sometimes, our mode is such that we can have utterly sincere, profoundly moving heart-to-heart talk about a teacher we had in fifth grade. But if the topic is "how the fuck does marriage work?" or "damn, things are very different with a baby" or "I am terrified about death" or "what if I lose my job?" some kind of failsafe kicks in and we clam up. Anything relating to one's own vulnerability is much harder to talk about. At heart there's some pack-animal thing where the dog who shows his belly is forfeiting hierarchical dominance or something.

whoa, fgti and his blind items ;)

fwiw i've recently had a... playful... relationship with a much younger man in the arts, and he's got all the power. It's strange.

{i'm not painting myself as exploited, to be clear)

The Possibility Of A Boner

probably my least favorite concept album

re: The Possibility Of A Boner, there are different kinds of boners, different kinds of desire. they aren't all about damaging or exploiting someone, you know?

My theory of desire is this picture I drew on my phone

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-w6kScUMAARA_f.jpg:small

Quick survey for those interested: how many of the rest of you never had an actual conversation with your father?

Like a father who was actually physically present for all/most of your upbringing.

I have a ton of issues with my dad and am not currently engaging with him, but both my sister and I have definitely had "real" talks with him at various points. The problem is that he forgets we had the conversations.

Quick survey for those interested: how many of the rest of you never had an actual conversation with your father?

I am not in this group, but a relevant recent story: I went to a cousin's wedding a couple weeks back and my dad (early 60s, I'm 31) got fairly drunk and started berating me for not getting up and dancing with the many inebriated women at this wedding. "If I were you I'd be all over that!" To which I answered "I have no idea which of these people I'm related to, and also, I can't possibly describe how little interest I have in doing that regardless." In conclusion, I hate weddings.

I have a good relationship with my dad, conversations included (usually prompted by some kind of crisis or major event, but not always)

all sexual relationships contain an imbalance of power

this is true about virtually everything, not just sexual relationships. but where that power imbalance matters in sexual relationships is how it's used - if power is exercised to take advantage of someone or coerce them, then that's wrong. that's where the predation is.

many xps

my dad can be a huge asshole, is often narcissistic, can be an enormous insensitive bully and a pompous ass when arguing with him but overall i appreciate and respect him and admire many qualities about him. he was a pretty good dad overall but there are times when hate talking with him, because he is often narcissistic it is difficult to approach him about a personal issue because he will end up just talking about himself

Like a father who was actually physically present for all/most of your upbringing.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch)

hahahaha, that's me out

it's kind of a weird one for me, because my dad was always more emotionally present for me than my mom was. i might have actually talked about stuff with him if he wasn't literally hiding from all human contact for most of our overlapping existence.

my dad calls my mom "woman" (just "woman", and sometimes "tiny woman") and has an interpretation of the bible that involves him being the Head of the Household with final authority, literally handed down from God, over all important decisions.

@ mookieproof, I'm of the opinion that all men's actions, and capitalism as a whole, are entirely the result of The Possibility Of A Boner.

Idk, I think there are lots of ego-driven actions in the ambition/'leave a mark' category that don't necessary have anything to do with boners or the possibility thereof. Maybe it comes from the same primal procreative urge but don't have anything to do with actual sex or even the fantasy of it.

my dad can be a huge asshole, is often narcissistic, can be an enormous insensitive bully and a pompous ass when arguing with him but overall i appreciate and respect him and admire many qualities about him. he was a pretty good dad overall but there are times when hate talking with him

replace narcissism with "reactionary contrarianism" and "being a pedant" and this is my precise relationship to my dad also

but where that power imbalance matters in sexual relationships is how it's used - if power is exercised to take advantage of someone or coerce them, then that's wrong. that's where the predation is.

many xps

― Οὖτις, Friday, October 13, 2017 8:05 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

'take advantage of' seems fairly hard to define though? if there is a power imbalance then how can the more powerful person know for sure that the other person won't feel taken advantage of, regardless of the former's intentions?

yeah that does get into intent, but the first step in avoiding it is obviously not doing it intentionally.

I think the closest to a conversation I ever had with my dad was:

Me (age 15 or so): I don't understand why money is so important.
Dad: That's just the way it is.

Otherwise, probably the most revealing thing he ever said was that when he died he just wanted to be tossed in a ditch on the side of the road (nb. we did not honor those wishes, sorry dad).

My father and I can happily talk for hours about Flaubert, David Bowie, Mozart, drinking, Cezanne, architecture, Blondie, Proust, or sexual exploits. But we have not ever ever ever talked about my parents' divorce, Vietnam, bullying, my childhood, or his childhood.

as in the kind of scenarios that prompted this whole discussion - rich and powerful man treats younger less powerful women as disposable sexual conquests. don't do that.

xp

lol Morbs I posted those blind items for you, you probably know exactly the crew I'm talking about

And yeah. In the interest in protecting the majority of survivors (female, young), "power" is something that's generally talked about as being in the hands of older, less-fuckable men, who have the money and the agency. But youth and beauty and sexual viability are its own power.

I've felt exploited in a relationship, once, when I realized that my lover (ten years younger) was actually not going to return the money he'd borrowed from me, in fact, he was just going to pocket it and pretend that it wasn't a loan. That guy totally sucked!

Worse than that, a friend of mine has a disability that has rendered him (and I say this as kindly as possible) unfuckable. He was preyed upon by a young man with a heroin addiction, given a blowjob, told he was loved, slept next to, and then squeezed for professional favours and cash for the following year. My friend was so fucked up about this. He couldn't deal with the fact that this man who said he loved him was actually just using him. The dissonance he was experiencing was overwhelming.

And ya @ Οὖτις

I just, again, reject the idea that people even like Harvey Weinstein at all have any idea what they're doing. People who are drugging women's drinks? yes, they know what they're doing. People surfing a power structure to behave in grossly inappropriate ways toward women? I doubt they have any idea.

I have a close relationship with my father.

When I turned 35, and saw my boyfriend-of-many-years start to prioritize his lovers over our relationship, and found myself doing the same, and saw many of my friends' marriages fall apart, usually because one person left the other for a younger lover, leaving behind kids and stability for The Possibility Of A Boner, I started to feel like toxic masculinity was not a side effect of capitalism and patriarchal construct, but actually a biological imperative, perhaps linked to the moment in men's lives when their boners become less possible? I certainly remember the captivating excitement of having a teenage-sized erection when I first hooked up with somebody who wasn't my boyfriend, it felt like "holy shit, I'm not one foot in the grave after all"

So, I decided to ask my father about this, as a man who was married five times. I asked him if he felt that there was some link between a desire for a new relationship with biological function, like, the imperative toward procreation (and thus immortality) was linked toward boner strength, which is why a dude like him would leave four wives and remarry increasingly younger women. I asked him point-blank: was this because your boners were getting less frequent and you felt a biological imperative to have a younger wife? (My father is a scientist.)

He gave me a weird answer that I didn't expect. He said, "all my younger wives and lovers came to me. I've never actively pursued anybody in my life." I wanted to talk about boners, but he gave me this defensive answer. Like, really, Dad? You need to express that to me? Of course these women were drawn to you, you were an eminent scholar, top of your field. Anyway, it wasn't a useful conversation in the end I guess.

But yeah, my father clearly had no idea that his actions may have been exploitive. And if he was carrying any guilt about it? he was creating scenarios in which he was guilt-free. And then extending those scenarios to me with little-to-no provocation. I don't think abusers know what the fuck they're doing.

IDK, it's pretty hard for me to see what he did in these accounts as much different from drugging a woman's drink:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/from-aggressive-overtures-to-sexual-assault-harvey-weinsteins-accusers-tell-their-stories

e.g. forcing a woman's head down onto you as she is saying "over and over, ‘I don’t want to do this, stop, don’t'"

fgti - sounds like some frog + scorpion "it's just my nature" angle

Right. Weinstein seems like a serial predator who understood he was pushing women into non-consensual encounters. This kind of thing is really different than misreading social cues or being (perhaps wilfully) oblivious to power differentials in one's relationships.

One time I hooked up with a dude who told me he was worth $30 million. I was giving him a blowjob and I really wasn't into it and wanted to stop. The sudden thought "this guy is worth $30 million" crossed my mind, and with that thought in mind, I redoubled my fellatious efforts. (He wasn't worth $30 million, in the end. Who was exploiting who, in that situation? I wonder.)

Not that anyone here is trying to blur that line. I am just saying as a side note that there are true blue abusers out there who knowingly hurt people.

self xp

Who was exploiting who, in that situation?

mutually exploitative relationships can occasionally work out on balance lol

lol Morbs I posted those blind items for you, you probably know exactly the crew I'm talking about

naaah, I'm (almost) never hip to such networks; i'd guess 1 out of 4 suspects there, with luck

One of the bigger revelations I've had in recent years is that, as a straight white dude, the Golden Rule is an insufficient place for me to start from wrt relating to those who aren't white/hetero/male/etc. Like, I long thought that treating everybody equally was enough without taking into account that, for example, just because I'm pretty darn unimposing compared to most guys, I'm still a guy, and some people are always going to see me as a representative of Guyville and relate to me in terms of their past relationships with guys. Trying to recognize and empathize with the larger context through which others might be seeing me has been a big deal, and it's an obstacle I think a lot of people have trouble overcoming (see #notallmen).

Lol @ outic

Yeah, I have said several times in this thread "Harvey Weinstein and people like him" and I gotta retract. I just re-read the Ronan Farrow thing and Weinstein is some next-level monster.

Trying to recognize and empathize with the larger context through which others might be seeing me has been a big deal, and it's an obstacle I think a lot of people have trouble overcoming (see #notallmen).

My very healthy and normal response to this problem has been to not date

Jesus, been reading this thread and Weinstein stuff, then within five minutes saw article about the dude from Real Estate (who I was never a fan of, but know one of the dudes) and then this (who I was definitely a fan of):
https://www.stereogum.com/1967168/the-gaslamp-killer-responds-to-allegations-that-he-drugged-and-raped-two-women/news/

xpost Sad lol. I geddit. The inherent inequality of power dynamics that are much bigger than yourself and about which you yourself have limited ability to change can be paralyzing, for sure.