Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

Yeah i figured that was obvious

Yeah, totally, I just thought it was funny.

In 1967 Zappa wasn't even that stupid yet, for a start.

The Suzy Creamcheese thing was a little stupid.

I really like what I know from the 60s, though, to be clear!

I love the overall sound of Overnite Sensation/Apostrophe (')/One Size Fits All ... really warm and bassy.

I love Chuck's writing but he never let the facts get in the way of a good line

I love the overall sound of Overnite Sensation/Apostrophe (')/One Size Fits All ... really warm and bassy.

Still need to hear a number of those 2012 remasters. I´m not an audiophile but for someone as perfectionist as Zappa I´m surprised the cd masters were never that good (even the Ryko ones that said "Zappa approved" which was just a marketing thing). The only editions of Overnite Sensation + Apostrophe(') I know where the Zappa Records version and it didn´t sound very good. Rave reviews about the 2012 edition of 'Burnt Weeny Sandwich' too.

I only bought "Shut Up..." and "Sleep Dirt" and yes they do sound great (+ the 2012 version of "Sleep Dirt" does away with the vocals).

The Suzy Creamcheese thing was a little stupid.

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r)

i'm listening to detlev glanert's "requiem for jheronimus bosch". every track starts with somebody gravely intoning "jheronimus bosch", and every time i wait for the speaker to follow up with "what's got into you?"

it never happens. probably because the piece is in dutch or something. good piece, though. kind of reminds me of the vocal bits on "200 motels".

This AV Club piece is actually pretty good. The writer starts off saying he appreciates Frank Zappa the iconoclast and smart guy, but has never clicked with the music. So he picks three albums - We're Only In It For The Money, Hot Rats, and the whole Joe's Garage trilogy - and dives in. And SPOILER he does not come away converted.

From what I can tell, most of We’re Only In It For The Money’s reputation as cutting, hippie-mocking satire seems to be tied up in a handful of songs—“Who Needs The Peace Corps?,” “Absolutely Free,” and “Flower Punk”—all of them calling out fakers dressed in beads and bells, making pilgrimages to San Francisco to “play my bongos in the dirt,” with no political opinions nor any greater aspirations than just getting stoned and becoming the road manager for a psychedelic rock band (or worse, playing in one).

...

Still, as far as comedy goes, “Peace Corps” and “Flower Punk” are basically New Yorker cartoons; any square in America could have written these same gibes about long-haired, barefoot freaks catching crabs at their love-ins. “Peace Corps” does have a pretty good line about loving everyone, even “the police as they kick the shit out of me in the street.” But mostly they’re just a taunting rundown of ’60s stereotypes that today feel as novelty-song-dated as Zappa’s similar ’80s pop screed “Valley Girl.” A lot of the “satire” seems to be just describing things.

...

But to me, today, as someone with zero investment in hearing hippies and Peter Paul And Mary taken down a peg, what I’m mostly left with is a batch of songs that largely seem designed to be irritating, a sneer directed at a culture that mostly stopped existing a year after its release. While there’s an impressive jumble of unconventional instrumentation here beneath all the dialogue snippets and backmasked squalls, with the sole exception of the silly doo-wop earworm “What’s The Ugliest Part Of Your Body?,” it almost completely eschews memorable melodies—and, you know, enjoyable songs. I just can’t imagine revisiting We’re Only In It For The Money for any sort of listening pleasure; it seems to scoff at the very idea. So... the joke is on me?

I don't think FZ needs to be defended but this guy's take on We're only in it... is wrong on all levels IMHO. One of the few (only) FZ albums with a bunch of catchy melodies. "Lonely Little Girl" for instance is a classic, music and lyric wise.

yea that's just completely wrong. no "memorable melodies", what ??? god, "Absolutely Free" still pops into my head on a weekly basis, and I haven't heard the album in years. in fact that take as a whole - liking Zappa but not his music - sounds like the absolute worst take you can have on him

yep

Had only heard bits and pieces from it before, but really digging this copy of Roxy & Elsewhere I got yesterday.

It's my favorite Zappa record. Though I'm worried the upcoming Roxy box might be too much of a good thing.

just listened to Hot Rats all the way through - i have a recentish memory of mark s telling me it's no good but MAN IT IS GOOD

peaches en regalia somewhat aside (sorry zap-hedz) it is one stonking hard jam after another. some of zappa's best solo playing. and the drums! even son of mr green genes somewhat improbably becomes amazing after a typically fussy "here comes the king" intro

the gumbo variations in particular is just magisterial and stands out as ultra-funky relative to zappa's often stiff-backed steez - i can actually imagine playing it for a dancefloor

of course there's a library music version of mr. green genes (xref: library music thread):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwhYLwrDN_w

here's a high school jazz group playing excerpts from hot rats in 1969

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Gr1KS05qs

hot rats is great. his court appearances challenging censorship are classic as well

just picked up an old vinyl copy of Absolutely Free to add to the collection as my son has been wanting to check out some of our old timey Zappa albums

yeah i heard hot rats for the first time recently and was amazed by how much i dug it.

i should have put my post here!

teaching mark s a *LESSON* response one: ZAPPA

well, now they're CONNECTED and it's all right

I heard Waka/Jawaka for the first time last week, that's another one I need to get eventually

add Grand Wazoo to that list too, if you haven't already

Hot Rats fans, seek out both mixes (1969, 1987) -- they're like 2 different albums, both great.

dont trust mark s!!

the vinyl mix is nice. i like the omission of the first three and a half minutes of the "gumbo variations" jam. the "little umbrellas" mix also has way more bass in it and is really good.

also worth finding: the radio ads by david ossman (firesign theatre) for the album. one of them actually has an unreleased frank zappa song ("passacaglia", track 6 of "the artisan acetate") in the background.

oh, and there's a great 12 minute jam on "sharleena" from the "hot rats" sessions closing out the "lost episodes" cd.

I've got the vinyl! never knew there was a difft version of gumbo variations

they're all bad not good

(xp) One feels like it lasts 10 years, the other is longer.

My gateway into moderate Zappa fandom (strictly 60's MoI tbh). The drums as noted above are great and the guitar showboating actually works (eg Willie the Pimp ios pretty badass). Also love the overlooked angular jazzy closer It Must be a Camel

classic clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAF8Vu8G0w

I just had the realization that Zappa if alive today would totally go on the Joe Rogan podcast

He'd not just be a guest, he'd be a regular.

He'd have gone into an incoherent apoplectic rage when we invaded Iraq and burned himself out of any creativity or coherence he might have had left. Now, in his late 70s, he'd tell anyone calling on him to fuck off and let him die in peace.

His whole persona is like the template for YouTube guys, like sarcastic, know it all, vaguely libertarian, "people today are too easily offended/controlled by the government/corporate media", misogynistic, casually racist

He'd have gone into an incoherent apoplectic rage when we invaded Iraq and burned himself out of any creativity or coherence he might have had left. Now, in his late 70s, he'd tell anyone calling on him to fuck off and let him die in peace.

― I hear you've been having trouble with pigs and ponies. (WmC)

he'd have gone into an incoherent apopleptic rage over napster and would've spent the last twenty years suing his fans

politically he's a pretty clear forerunner of today's social media assholes but he probably would hate them just as much as he hated everybody else

Eh, ultimately, I think he cared more about music than any of that. Maybe he'd be programming with Max/MSP and doing TED talks on Varese idk.

Oh god yeah Napster/streaming would have drove him nuts

That one I could maybe see.

he probably would've done a "Macarena" parody in like...2004

All of you otm. He’d also be prime material for a WTF sit down with Marc Maron

he probably would've done a "Macarena" parody in like...2004

― frogbs

look he wasn't "shitty weird al yankovic", his being old and out of touch manifested in other ways. he'd probably be making fun of, like, jerry garcia's od (timeline works out: made fun of hendrix's death in 1984, elvis's death in 1988). that's another thing: he loved to make fun of people for dying, and as far as i can tell, nobody ever died as a result of the macarena.

but of course most of his "satire" in 2004 would likely be taken up with songs attacking george w. bush and islam in roughly equal measure.

he probably would have had his own porn site.

lol just thinking about him releasing an album called "Shiek Yerbouti" in 1979

TED talks on Varese

<3

Zappa in New York is being blown out to a 5CD set in March.

http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/zappa_ny3600.jpg

Limited edition 5CD set in an embossed tin box

CD 1 – The Original 1977 vinyl mix
1 Titties & Beer 5:01
2 I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth 3:31
3 Big Leg Emma 2:17
4 Sofa 3:16
5 Manx Needs Women 1:34
6 The Black Page Drum Solo/Black Page #1 4:06
7 Black Page #2 5:42
8 Honey, Don’t You Want A Man Like Me? 4:16
9 The Illinois Enema Bandit 12:41
10 The Purple Lagoon 17:12

CD 2 – Bonus Concert Performances – Part One
1 “The Most Important Musical Event Of 1976”
2 Peaches En Regalia
3 The Torture Never Stops
4 Black Page #2
5 Punky’s Whips intro
6 Punky’s Whips
7 I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth
8 Honey, Don’t You Want A Man Like Me?
9 The Illinois Enema Bandit
10 “Two For The Price Of One”
11 Penis Dimension
12 Montana

CD 3 – Bonus Concert Performances – Part Two
1 America Drinks 4:52
2 “Irate Phone Calls” 1:37
3 Sofa #2 3:04
4 “The Moment You’ve All Been Waiting For” :58
5 I’m The Slime 5:38
6 Pound For A Brown 4:50
7 Terry’s Solo 2:47
8 The Black Page Drum Solo/Black Page #1 3:53
9 Big Leg Emma 2:19
10 “Jazz Buffs and Buff-etts” 1:51
11 The Purple Lagoon 17:00
12 Find Her Finer 5:22
13 The Origin Of Manx 1:48
14 Manx Needs Women 1:37
15 Chrissy Puked Twice 6:40
16 Cruisin’ For Burgers 9:56

CD 4 – Bonus Concert Performances – Part Three
1 The Purple Lagoon/Any Kind Of Pain 4:25
2 “The Greatest New Undiscovered Group In America” 2:18
3 Black Napkins 28:33
4 Dinah-Moe Humm 6:16
5 Finale 4:40

CD 5 – Bonus Vault Content
1 The Black Page #2 (Piano Version) 3:16
2 I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth (Alternate Version) 3:55
3 Chrissy Puked Twice
4 Cruisin’ For Burgers (1977 Mix) 9:08
5 Black Napkins (c)1976 10:56
6 Punky’s Whips (Unused Version) 10:55
7 The Black Page #1 (Piano Version) . 2:13

There's also a 3LP version with a much shorter track listing:

Side A
1. Titties N Beer
2. I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth
3. Big Leg Emma

Side B
1. Sofa
2. Manx Needs Women
3. The Black Page Drum Solo/Black Page #1
4. Black Page #2

Side C
1. Honey, Dont You Want A Man Like Me?
2. The Illinois Enema Bandit

Side D
1. The Purple Lagoon (Side B)

Side E
1. Black Napkins
2. Cruisin For Burgers (1977 Mix)

Side F
1. The Black Page #2 (Piano Version)
2. I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth (Alt. Version)
3. Punkys Whips (Unused Version)
4. The Black Page #1 (Piano Version)

What's the deal with Orchestral Favorites?

I recently found a CD I barely remember owning or playing. Coincidentally there seems to be an expanded reissue in the works.

Was it from a concert or not? Some kind of contractual obligation thing? Anyway, glad I dug it out of that box.

Another early attempt he made at getting his "orchestral" music recorded with a pickup orchestra (really mostly an expanded version of the Grand Wazoo big band). It's OK, and it's nice to hear Emil Richards playing Zappa's stuff, but it's still probably the weakest of his "orchestral" works. It was another one that came out of the material intended for Läther (learned how to type umlauts on a US keyboard this week)

is that the same as the Revised Music for a Low Budget Symphony Orchestra -Live at Royce Hall 75

I believe so, yeah.