Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

yeah i dunno maybe zappa just sucks

honestly, he feels much less benign these days, because I really do feel like his whole worldview is pretty foundational to the whole angry nerd/Reddit atheist/gamergate/shitlord mindset that led to the alt right

More by accident than intent but there's a thread there. Though if anything, as a couple of friends have noted, the line of descent to libertarian techbro might be even clearer.

^this. I dislike Zappa for the toxic self pity, but more than that, I dislike 20's me for thinking this stuff was good.

I've always thought Zappa was mostly worthless so I guess I dislike 30s me for looking a bit like him

Oddly enough, last year I did kick down for the first/only time for anything Zappa related, namely that documentary they're doing with all the archives. Honestly I was most interested in it precisely because I'm interested in any archival project in general, given my library work. I figure that might be all I need.

That said, my girlfriend has long had a framed poster of this photo in the kitchen -- namely due to the oven mitt:

http://www.afka.net/images/Articles/1984-16.gif

More by accident than intent but there's a thread there. Though if anything, as a couple of friends have noted, the line of descent to libertarian techbro might be even clearer.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, September 26, 2017 10:40 AM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah what else? Obviously Bill Hicks, Dennis Miller (so then maybe Chevy Chase on Weekend Update as a precursor?), Dennis Leary...

oh well, I'll have plenty of time to ponder this while listening to "Sy Borg" which feels as though it will go on for the remainder of my life on Earth answering the unasked musical question "What if Spyro Gyra did a dirty sci fi comedy reggae album?"

though i guess zappa is expanding his range from misogyny to include homophobia on this one

though i guess zappa is expanding his range from misogyny to include homophobia on this one

Ah, you've never heard "Bobby Brown," I see.

I'm not sure if I've even ever made it all the way through all of Joe's Garage but "Watermelon in Easter Hay" makes up for a hell of a lot, both in terms of dumb shit on that album AND in terms of mediocre guitar solos.

(Those early 70s big band albums are so great imo!)

Wasn't there a big essay about that tune (at Perfect Sound Forever?) to the point you're making, no doubt linked upthread somewhere.

Actually couldn't find link here though: http://www.furious.com/perfect/zappainstrumentals.html

though=so

Thus, if you have enjoyed, endured, or fast-forwarded your way through, say, "Stick It Out," "Sy Borg," "Dong Work for Yuda," and "Keep It Greasey" (sic), you encounter one of the most extraordinary pieces of music that Zappa ever concocted: "Watermelon in Easter Hay."

xp sorry

shakedown OTM regarding Zappa's views leading to alt-right ideologies

Really?

Honestly, with respect, that feels to me a little bit like Amanda Marcotte's Sgt Pepper -> Disco Demolition argument.

"more by accident than intent" as ned said

For reference:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/any-other-zappa-fan-besides-me-thinks-watermelon-in-easter-hay-is-overrated-as-a-fz-guitar-solo.372130/

He was an obnoxious white dude and they're obnoxious white dudes but I really don't see an ideological foundation there. Alt-right guys wouldn't be so bad if they were just about snarky memes.

Him and Lou Reed used to get together and have all day blubbing sessions.

― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, September 26, 2017 7:00 AM

Okay, "Watermelon in Easter Hay" is sufficiently similar to "Maggot Brain' for me to enjoy it. "Play like BIg Mother died," as Xgau might say.

i don't know drawing a line of descent from zappa through the internet has to cope with the spectre of a zappa who didn't die at age 52 of prostate cancer spending a decade suing everybody on the internet for STEALING HIS MUSIC (you know he would have, the guy would have loathed the internet from the second he realized it was costing him money)

'Watermelon in Easter Hay' is good or, to render that sentence in its fuller, more prevalent form, "But 'Watermelon in Easter Hay' is good".

I wonder whose current jerk behaviour is going to be credited as part of the foundation for a future movement?

Honestly, with respect, that feels to me a little bit like Amanda Marcotte's Sgt Pepper -> Disco Demolition argument.

u miss knows that I don't mean this as a personal dig but I feel like our reasoning process is in this very unhealthy place where we go "this shitty thing from the past [here, Zappa's various pathologies] resembles at several points this shitty thing we all hate now [reddit techbro libertarianism] = it's the father of it, therefore, it's an INFLUENCE, it's ACTUALLY THE SAME THING"

just as far as how ideas work/grow/form I don't think this is a good way of thinking about things. losing battle in 2017 I know, we're very much about linear descent now, but I think it's mainly a lie

My hot take: "Watermelon" is overrated and the rest of Joe's Garage (despite some real clunkers) is underrated.

Okay, enough Zappa-negging for the moment. The guy could write an interesting melody, and I really enjoyed this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtGqx8lT6J8

finally got threw this, what a fuckin slog, entirely pointless and shitty the whole way through

My hot take: "Watermelon" is overrated and the rest of Joe's Garage (despite some real clunkers) is underrated.

― Moodles, Wednesday, September 27, 2017 8:52 AM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's overrated in the way you might overrated a rubber ducky floating in a toilet full of diarrhea and vomit

Honestly, with respect, that feels to me a little bit like Amanda Marcotte's Sgt Pepper -> Disco Demolition argument.
u miss knows that I don't mean this as a personal dig but I feel like our reasoning process is in this very unhealthy place where we go "this shitty thing from the past [here, Zappa's various pathologies] resembles at several points this shitty thing we all hate now [reddit techbro libertarianism] = it's the father of it, therefore, it's an INFLUENCE, it's ACTUALLY THE SAME THING"

just as far as how ideas work/grow/form I don't think this is a good way of thinking about things. losing battle in 2017 I know, we're very much about linear descent now, but I think it's mainly a lie

― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, September 27, 2017 8:44 AM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i mean i guess i don't know how well i articulated, and i don't believe there are these clean cause>effect relationships, but I do strongly believe that Zappa was a big figure in creating a kind of mean, sneering nerd culture that as we've now seen somehow feels itself outcast and superior to while at the same time essential reinforcing and participating in the worst aspects of the dominant culture

like pink floyd

yeah the thing is - I feel you - but it's also interesting that e.g. as brimstead points out, pink floyd fans / beatles fans / the david crosbys of the world, these guys also flex a fair bit of the "I'm one of the people who GETS it" thing - Zappa's own strain is aspirationally academic but the rot at the root rises into all sorts of areas of human endeavor imo. there's frank zappas & reddit tech-bros in every field, it's just that the most damaging/dominant one right now seems like some sort of special realization: because it's current. but it's really just more pharisees imo

I do love that Zappa, who had no actual appetite for dialogue, is such a reliable lodestone for conversation

also from the box set thing

From October 28-31, 1977, Zappa and his band played six historic shows at the 3,000 capacity Palladium.

this was music that promoters saw fit to book for six shows in a 3k cap room & they sold it, too

wild times

And a couple of years later the Clash had a 17 night residency at a New York casino.

Thanks to you nerds I went down the rabbit hole of "Keep It Greasy." As a song it, well, sucks, but as a track held up as the hardest Zappa song to play ... maybe! I learned that the album version is the only take they ever did at that level of complexity, and every time it was played after that it had to be simplified at least a little bit, and that was even with Vinnie playing drums. I get the feeling Zappa often wrote weird shit just to watch his awesome drummers play.

Too bad the song does suck, though. One should never conflate complexity with quality, that's how you end up with, yeah, Steve Vai, and Dream Theatre. Who at least don't sing misogynistic songs about sex and bodily functions, as far as I know.

One should never conflate complexity with quality

A music teacher of mine always made sure we understood the difference between complex and complicated. I always found Zappa's music to be complicated, but not particularly (or even the least bit, for the most part) complex.

(see also: Andre Previn's famous quote, “You know, Stan Kenton can stand in front of 1,000 fiddles and 1,000 brass and make a dramatic gesture and every studio arranger can nod his head and say, ‘Oh, yes, that’s done like this.’ But Duke merely lifts his little finger, three horns make a sound and I don’t know what it is!”)

Steve Vai's music is awesome for jogging & working out to fuiud

That's fair (both xpost and, probably, Vai as functional soundtrack).

Only David Lee Roth, a man of greater vision than Zappa, understood how to use Vai properly: as a gonzo gimmicky musical equivalent of the Tasmanian Devil meets Bugs Bunny

like pink floyd

― brimstead, Wednesday, September 27, 2017 9:16 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

heh i guess late period Roger Waters is warning to those of us to say "I wish Zappa wouldn't try to be funny" to be careful what we wish for

xpost And Laswell, who knows the place of a Sci-Fi stunt guitarist. Belew obviously is often used in that role as well, but he can sing and write too.

I always preferred Satriani, who had a way with melody even if it was often used in service of what sounded like car commercial music.

Surfing With the Alien is great

Warren Dimartini of Ratt is a really underrated shredder

He was an obnoxious white dude and they're obnoxious white dudes but I really don't see an ideological foundation there.

it's for another thread, but in "Kill All Normies" Angela Nagel makes a convincing case that countercultural ideas of (especially) the 60s were associated with leftism by accident and that a lot of them are now being used to great effect by alt-right, for instance in the valuation of provocation as a mode of expression - this parts aligns nicely with Zappa

He was an obnoxious white dude and they're obnoxious white dudes but I really don't see an ideological foundation there.

all the asshole jerks he wrote about was the music industry he had to contend with across his career. there was a lot of abusive entertainment industry stuff going on in the 70s, so he swung his critical eye from broader politics to these character studies of the horrible people he had to work with. this was really happening in his sphere of work. he could have ignored it, he could have commercialized it (doing a Led Zep with more protestant palatable entendres like "Squeeze my lemon"). he chose to write about it instead.

its an annoying myth that he was just an amoral troll. he found this stuff despicable and was pointing it out to people. of course he could be aesthetically grotesque and offensive and that largely gets in the way, it is fine if it triggers or turns you off to not listen. but in general i don't think his targets were really the little guy.

he had a really great ear for collaborators and it led to a lot of cool stuff. Terry Bozzio singing on the punk pastiche "I'm So Cute" is one of the best Zappa moments.

finally got threw this, what a fuckin slog, entirely pointless and shitty the whole way through

I feel you, I did the same thing a few years back and came to the same conclusions. The triple album is nicely packaged though.

its an annoying myth that he was just an amoral troll. he found this stuff despicable and was pointing it out to people. of course he could be aesthetically grotesque and offensive and that largely gets in the way, it is fine if it triggers or turns you off to not listen. but in general i don't think his targets were really the little guy.

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, September 27, 2017 11:07 AM (nineteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

joe's garage is so unrelentingly condescending, ugly and dehumanizing towards women and groupies honestly i don't how you say this with a straight faced. at least KISS or some band like that offered a theoretical good time and glamour not Zappa's "$50" and being mocked by a bunch of nerdy dicks in terrible sweaters

yep zappa was mean-spirited towards plenty of "little guys"... those who earn his ire for being "stupid" or whatever. i don't think it's on this thread but there was a big discussion somewhere here about this aspect of his lyrics.

every time I check in on this guy to see if he's worth the effort (like when I listened to Watermelon in Easter Hay just now) the answer is an unequivocal "nope". Zappa's appeal is so narrow and riddled with so many caveats.

yeah i havent heard Joe's Garage in full. Catholic Girls is hilarious tho.

the rock idiom was a sexist milieu in the 70s. and as much as he exploited women and groupies they also featured heavily on his work, contributing stories, having a say. compare this to 80s hair metal or 70s stadium rockers. this is the historical context in which he was working.

lol at holding up Kiss as a good example.