Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

Ha, yeah, tbf, I don't even really know what it would mean to 'cheapen' experimental music.

(Also, a lot of people still have trouble accepting it!)

not to be that guy, but which things exactly are being called "experimental" here? cage's definition is something like: composition or creation deploying indeterminacy to reach endpoints that couldn't be predicted in detail from the outset -- and one-offs aside, i'm not sure anything zappa routinely does really falls into this category, he was always an intensely controlling* composer, albeit one at an unusual number of different levels (if that make sense)

(obviously fz's audience interraction games produced material that does -- all live performance has elements of unpredictability -- but as soon as he's in a studio quilting elements of it into concrète collages the "experimental" dimension is stripped straight back out)

*cage was also highly controlling in person but very much in service of the genuinely unpredicted

no idea what i was talking about there with that statement, my apologies.

mark, for what it's worth varese rejected the notion that his music was "experimental", saying something like "I experiment before writing my music!"

Unless I'm in an academic setting, I tend to assume that no one is using Cage's definition and "experimental" just means "avant-garde" or "unconventional".

^ yeah

ah ok, fair enough -- it was more a question than a gotcha: on one hand (very proofing-editor voice) it seems a pity to blur away a usefully precise word; on the other, literally nothing is more boring than arguing abt definitions

i actually quite like the idea of compare-contrasting cage's affable demeanour as composerly major domo with zappa's -- as a device in line with or at odds with the larger project -- but that's partly bcz i think their projects only line up to a small degree, and this quasi-similarity is a handy way to pin down the nature of the overlap and the difference

those Nightmatch videos are something else. 10 years ago I would've proclaimed Zappa a hero for knocking down a church lady like that, especially one with such an encyclopedic knowledge of dirty Prince lyrics, what's going on in HER mind, har har har??? but that's a dumb opinion. Zappa comes off as affable and well-spoken but he's grandstanding about an argument that isn't actually happening. mentions too many times that he isn't a fan of the music in question, like we care what you think about Prince. at one point reads a supposedly "humorous" disclaimer off the back of one of his albums to dead silence. occasionally says something profound. he's right about a lot of things but the isn't the question less about censorship and more about Parental Advisory stickers? parents *should* know what their kids are listening to or watching. so what.

In some ways Zappa cheapened experimental music

― Week of Wonders (Ross)

I suppose you could make the argument that Zappa cheapened experimental music by associating it with dumb puerile misogyny, deliberately or otherwise. Not that I think he did.

great discussion, one that made me resolve to get through Joe's Garage and let me tell you it is hilarious to read very interesting debate about Zappa's in relation to Cage and the definition of experimental music while listening to "Why Does it Hurt When I Pee" doing some bullshit x rated cod Kansas song

yeah i revoke that statement - i mean i LOVE early appearances of the Mothers on TV shows, just pure madness. Also Uncle Meat/Lumpy Gravy rule. I find his Serious artist vs. audience shtick pretty interesting overall, where it comes from etc

I could totally imagine "The Fez" as a Zappa song and being sung in his smug speak-sing voice and hating it.

Oh great, now I can hear this too. Way to ruin my morning.

Lumpy Gravy is shite, whereas I quite like Why Does It Hurt When I Pee.

Cage hostile to improvisation, and always felt that Zappa was in some way too. I enjoy his jazz fusiony recs like Grand Wazoo - no singing! - but even the solos on them seem more like composition than spontaneous expression.

Waka/Jawaka and Grand Wazoo aren't necessarily my favorites to listen to on a regular basis but they are probably the most *impressive* thing he did, there are moments on those that are genuinely jaw dropping to me, just this hyper complex anal retentive modern classical/fusion jams (but not really jams at all). like i do get that thing you get from some prog or math rock where it's like "how did humans do this?"

so I don't know exactly why you would need five full shows from the Baby Snakes concerts, they seem to have roughly the same set lists from show to show, but I do find the costume and add ins for this box set to be pretty funny.

http://www.zappa.com/news/halloween-77-box-set-celebrates-historic-concert-runs-40th-anniversary-october-20

Those albums bored the tits off me, tbh.(xp)

yeah i dunno maybe zappa just sucks

honestly, he feels much less benign these days, because I really do feel like his whole worldview is pretty foundational to the whole angry nerd/Reddit atheist/gamergate/shitlord mindset that led to the alt right

More by accident than intent but there's a thread there. Though if anything, as a couple of friends have noted, the line of descent to libertarian techbro might be even clearer.

^this. I dislike Zappa for the toxic self pity, but more than that, I dislike 20's me for thinking this stuff was good.

I've always thought Zappa was mostly worthless so I guess I dislike 30s me for looking a bit like him

Oddly enough, last year I did kick down for the first/only time for anything Zappa related, namely that documentary they're doing with all the archives. Honestly I was most interested in it precisely because I'm interested in any archival project in general, given my library work. I figure that might be all I need.

That said, my girlfriend has long had a framed poster of this photo in the kitchen -- namely due to the oven mitt:

http://www.afka.net/images/Articles/1984-16.gif

More by accident than intent but there's a thread there. Though if anything, as a couple of friends have noted, the line of descent to libertarian techbro might be even clearer.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, September 26, 2017 10:40 AM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah what else? Obviously Bill Hicks, Dennis Miller (so then maybe Chevy Chase on Weekend Update as a precursor?), Dennis Leary...

oh well, I'll have plenty of time to ponder this while listening to "Sy Borg" which feels as though it will go on for the remainder of my life on Earth answering the unasked musical question "What if Spyro Gyra did a dirty sci fi comedy reggae album?"

though i guess zappa is expanding his range from misogyny to include homophobia on this one

though i guess zappa is expanding his range from misogyny to include homophobia on this one

Ah, you've never heard "Bobby Brown," I see.

I'm not sure if I've even ever made it all the way through all of Joe's Garage but "Watermelon in Easter Hay" makes up for a hell of a lot, both in terms of dumb shit on that album AND in terms of mediocre guitar solos.

(Those early 70s big band albums are so great imo!)

Wasn't there a big essay about that tune (at Perfect Sound Forever?) to the point you're making, no doubt linked upthread somewhere.

Actually couldn't find link here though: http://www.furious.com/perfect/zappainstrumentals.html

though=so

Thus, if you have enjoyed, endured, or fast-forwarded your way through, say, "Stick It Out," "Sy Borg," "Dong Work for Yuda," and "Keep It Greasey" (sic), you encounter one of the most extraordinary pieces of music that Zappa ever concocted: "Watermelon in Easter Hay."

xp sorry

shakedown OTM regarding Zappa's views leading to alt-right ideologies

Really?

Honestly, with respect, that feels to me a little bit like Amanda Marcotte's Sgt Pepper -> Disco Demolition argument.

"more by accident than intent" as ned said

For reference:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/any-other-zappa-fan-besides-me-thinks-watermelon-in-easter-hay-is-overrated-as-a-fz-guitar-solo.372130/

He was an obnoxious white dude and they're obnoxious white dudes but I really don't see an ideological foundation there. Alt-right guys wouldn't be so bad if they were just about snarky memes.

Him and Lou Reed used to get together and have all day blubbing sessions.

― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, September 26, 2017 7:00 AM

Okay, "Watermelon in Easter Hay" is sufficiently similar to "Maggot Brain' for me to enjoy it. "Play like BIg Mother died," as Xgau might say.

i don't know drawing a line of descent from zappa through the internet has to cope with the spectre of a zappa who didn't die at age 52 of prostate cancer spending a decade suing everybody on the internet for STEALING HIS MUSIC (you know he would have, the guy would have loathed the internet from the second he realized it was costing him money)

'Watermelon in Easter Hay' is good or, to render that sentence in its fuller, more prevalent form, "But 'Watermelon in Easter Hay' is good".

I wonder whose current jerk behaviour is going to be credited as part of the foundation for a future movement?

Honestly, with respect, that feels to me a little bit like Amanda Marcotte's Sgt Pepper -> Disco Demolition argument.

u miss knows that I don't mean this as a personal dig but I feel like our reasoning process is in this very unhealthy place where we go "this shitty thing from the past [here, Zappa's various pathologies] resembles at several points this shitty thing we all hate now [reddit techbro libertarianism] = it's the father of it, therefore, it's an INFLUENCE, it's ACTUALLY THE SAME THING"

just as far as how ideas work/grow/form I don't think this is a good way of thinking about things. losing battle in 2017 I know, we're very much about linear descent now, but I think it's mainly a lie

My hot take: "Watermelon" is overrated and the rest of Joe's Garage (despite some real clunkers) is underrated.

Okay, enough Zappa-negging for the moment. The guy could write an interesting melody, and I really enjoyed this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtGqx8lT6J8

finally got threw this, what a fuckin slog, entirely pointless and shitty the whole way through

My hot take: "Watermelon" is overrated and the rest of Joe's Garage (despite some real clunkers) is underrated.

― Moodles, Wednesday, September 27, 2017 8:52 AM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's overrated in the way you might overrated a rubber ducky floating in a toilet full of diarrhea and vomit

Honestly, with respect, that feels to me a little bit like Amanda Marcotte's Sgt Pepper -> Disco Demolition argument.
u miss knows that I don't mean this as a personal dig but I feel like our reasoning process is in this very unhealthy place where we go "this shitty thing from the past [here, Zappa's various pathologies] resembles at several points this shitty thing we all hate now [reddit techbro libertarianism] = it's the father of it, therefore, it's an INFLUENCE, it's ACTUALLY THE SAME THING"

just as far as how ideas work/grow/form I don't think this is a good way of thinking about things. losing battle in 2017 I know, we're very much about linear descent now, but I think it's mainly a lie

― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, September 27, 2017 8:44 AM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i mean i guess i don't know how well i articulated, and i don't believe there are these clean cause>effect relationships, but I do strongly believe that Zappa was a big figure in creating a kind of mean, sneering nerd culture that as we've now seen somehow feels itself outcast and superior to while at the same time essential reinforcing and participating in the worst aspects of the dominant culture

like pink floyd

yeah the thing is - I feel you - but it's also interesting that e.g. as brimstead points out, pink floyd fans / beatles fans / the david crosbys of the world, these guys also flex a fair bit of the "I'm one of the people who GETS it" thing - Zappa's own strain is aspirationally academic but the rot at the root rises into all sorts of areas of human endeavor imo. there's frank zappas & reddit tech-bros in every field, it's just that the most damaging/dominant one right now seems like some sort of special realization: because it's current. but it's really just more pharisees imo