How do you survive in the world when you take criticism of a ruling class war hawk so personally?
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 25 September 2017 14:04 (six years ago) link
How do you survive in the world when you take criticism of a the publication of a book by a ruling class war hawk so personally?
― President Keyes, Monday, 25 September 2017 14:12 (six years ago) link
How do you survive in the world when you take criticism of the publication of a book ^that almost no one here has actually read^ by a ruling class war hawk so personally?
― Karl Malone, Monday, 25 September 2017 14:14 (six years ago) link
How will the wolf survive when the hawk rules the skies?
― President Keyes, Monday, 25 September 2017 14:21 (six years ago) link
We should probably read the book, huh?
― Frederik B, Monday, 25 September 2017 14:25 (six years ago) link
i) Ruling class war hawks by definition have more power and influence than Internet randos who criticize them so I'm not sure the two things are equivalent. ii) I don't see anyone here taking the book especially personally as much as making sarcastic comments about it? The defenders do seem to be taking it pretty personally, though.
xps Ha, was going to add that I haven't actually read the book so.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Monday, 25 September 2017 14:25 (six years ago) link
I don't think anyone takes it personally on any side?
― Frederik B, Monday, 25 September 2017 14:29 (six years ago) link
Doug Henwood read it so i don't have to....
http://washingtonbabylon.com/3128-2/
but goodbye forever, HRC
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, 25 September 2017 15:34 (six years ago) link
is her book better than her husband's book? because her husband's book sucked.
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Monday, 25 September 2017 16:16 (six years ago) link
who 👏 has 👏 the 👏 pdf
― flappy bird, Monday, 25 September 2017 16:40 (six years ago) link
I am admittedly sort of encouraged by that passage Henwood cites at the end of the review. That's a significant reversal and a move in the right direction.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 25 September 2017 16:45 (six years ago) link
The defenders do seem to be taking it pretty personally, though.
If, by this, you mean to indicate I and others are reacting as if the criticism were being directed at us personally, then I don't see it. I don't feel personally attacked or criticized at all. otoh, if you only mean to say we are reacting as if the criticism is being directed at a person, not an effigy, then yeah, you're right.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 25 September 2017 16:48 (six years ago) link
Well one poster compared her to an actual abuse victim because she has suffered the slings and arrows of the media.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 25 September 2017 17:26 (six years ago) link
Somewhere in the middle for me. The level of smearing and the amount of bile leveled at HRC since early 1992 is certainly unprecedented for an American female politician, if only because there was never a female politician at her level prior to the 90s. But it comes with the job. I voted for her, I fuckin wish she was President every day, but she can't help making these completely oblivious & self-centered observations stemming from her (understandable) persecution complex. She hasn't recognized that Clintonism is dead and gone, and young people are becoming increasingly more leftist, especially since she lost the election. HRC losing to Trump demonstrated to so many that Clintonism & Obama compromise-style politics ain't gonna cut it anymore.
― flappy bird, Monday, 25 September 2017 17:36 (six years ago) link
If you are actually being persecuted all of the time, it is patently unfair to call it a "persecution complex".
― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Monday, 25 September 2017 17:38 (six years ago) link
You're right. Her paranoia is justified. & I can only imagine how that would cloud one's vision.
― flappy bird, Monday, 25 September 2017 17:41 (six years ago) link
i would say the sitting president of the united states still using the idea of sending her to prison as a way to get the crowd riled up, still wanting to revisit that email/benghazi bullshit, etc, i don't think it's a complex yeah.
― nomar, Monday, 25 September 2017 17:43 (six years ago) link
the level of smearing and the amount of bile leveled at HRC since early 1992 is certainly unprecedented for an American female politician, and was basically destined to be early on for the first woman who had the spine to run for president for real in a country as bigoted, class-riven, and sexist as the US. mrga
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:00 (six years ago) link
Shirley Chisholm might have taken issue with the second half of that sentence.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:10 (six years ago) link
shirley chisholm would have proudly voted for hillary clinton
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:16 (six years ago) link
i'm about halfway through reminck's essay (which i'm surprised no one anywhere is talking about) and while it's convincing me that i do not need to read the book, i do feel a little bad for her.
― k3vin k., Monday, 25 September 2017 18:19 (six years ago) link
i feel bad for all of us that the russians colluded with hillary's seditious, senile opponent and hacked our election. the whole thing is still so fucked up
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:21 (six years ago) link
sedition, now that just brings the 1790s back in an instant
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:22 (six years ago) link
I think that's more than a bit presumptuous xp
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:22 (six years ago) link
it is necessary to assume the election was lost fairly
― imago, Monday, 25 September 2017 18:28 (six years ago) link
also as bad as trump is hillary is no saint
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:47 (six years ago) link
I meant presumptuous to assume Chisholm would support Clinton. She certainly would have wanted a female president but Clinton is not in line with her politics.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:55 (six years ago) link
tbc, not saying she definitely wouldn't
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:57 (six years ago) link
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, September 25, 2017 7:22 PM (thirty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
what was it like being alive back then, Morbz?
― Cyndi Larper (stevie), Monday, 25 September 2017 18:57 (six years ago) link
― imago, Monday, September 25, 2017 2:28 PM (thirty minutes ago)
bull fucking shit it is. lost fairly by negative almost three million people!
― El Tomboto, Monday, 25 September 2017 18:59 (six years ago) link
Chisholm, as I recall her, would have clearly defined her differences with HRC, then after HRC's nomination would have endorsed her and campaigned for her, while still retaining her differences even as she made compelling pragmatic arguments in Clinton's favor. She was great.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 25 September 2017 19:00 (six years ago) link
You mean if she were running against her, sure. That's basically what Bernie did. Whether she'd prefer Hillary over Bernie seems like a tougher question.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 25 September 2017 19:03 (six years ago) link
I'm pretty sure Chisholm would have felt more comfortable with Bernie's positions than with Hillary's in the primaries, but she was nothing if not clear-sighted, and would have worked hard both to elect Hillary and to bring Hillary in her direction.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 25 September 2017 19:11 (six years ago) link
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-media-has-a-probability-problem/?ex_cid=538twitter
really great essay by nate. this is the sort of stuff i was ineffectually yelling into those crowded pre-election threads. we should learn form our mistakes
― k3vin k., Monday, 25 September 2017 19:23 (six years ago) link
we should learn form our mistakes
sorry, but, lol
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Monday, 25 September 2017 19:36 (six years ago) link
ha
― k3vin k., Monday, 25 September 2017 19:49 (six years ago) link
an but would Reagan have endorsed Hillary?
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 25 September 2017 19:49 (six years ago) link
― reggie (qualmsley)
thomas aquinas was our best president
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Monday, 25 September 2017 19:51 (six years ago) link
the level of smearing and the amount of bile leveled at HRC since early 1992 is certainly unprecedented for an American female politician, and was basically destined to be early on for the first woman who had the spine to run for president for real in a country as bigoted, class-riven, and sexist as the US.
How much of the "bile leveled at HRC" from 1992-2000 was a product of her association with Bill (not exactly a beloved figure to the American right) and to what extent can you even call her a politician before 2000? Was she really treated worse than Michelle Obama (whose husband created far less dirt for anyone to react to)? I don't recall 2000-2008 being a particularly fraught time for her politically.
This goes in hand with the arguments that left opposition to Hillary had to have secretly been driven entirely by misogyny rather than ideology. She was the standard bearer for Clintonism, which the left had objected to... since 1992. DOMA and welfare reform and Iraq sanctions and militarism and deregulation and on and on, before you even get to her vote to invade Iraq. Pointing to a lack of objection to Obama fails because he ran in 2008 against Clintonism.
― louise ck (milo z), Monday, 25 September 2017 20:04 (six years ago) link
To the extent that there used to be something dubbed Hillarycare
― President Keyes, Monday, 25 September 2017 20:46 (six years ago) link
milo - Hillary was in the media a lot during the 1992 primaries. During the campaign they referred to themselves as a "get 2 for the price of 1" presidency. She was a total break from the past w/r/t how First Ladies should behave. Right out of the gate, many people hated her for that.
― flappy bird, Monday, 25 September 2017 21:16 (six years ago) link
Yes, I was around for the Clinton era. Being a prominent political figure isn't the same as being a politician - she didn't run for anything (until 2000) as herself but acted as support for Clinton and his policies (which is how the sins of the Clinton Administration become her sins for the left).
Obviously a constant undercurrent of misogyny (initially disguised as traditional family roles) underlines her treatment by the right - as it does for every prominent woman (cf. 'Pocahontas Warren,' Cynthia McKinney, Pelosi, etc.). Every national Democratic figure, male or female, has been constantly slandered by the right-wing media machine since Jimmy Carter. To the extent that she's had it worse it was a product of her stature alongside Bill as the right-wing talk radio boom really took off and I don't see that she deserves special sympathy above and beyond any of those figures.
― louise ck (milo z), Monday, 25 September 2017 21:38 (six years ago) link
Her friend killed himself and a GOP senator was shooting at pumpkins to prove she murdered him. just like what happens to every dem politician
― President Keyes, Monday, 25 September 2017 23:31 (six years ago) link
I don't see that she deserves special sympathy above and beyond any of those figures.
Great. It isn't a contest to see who deserves the most sympathy. She simply deserves a measure of sympathy commensurate with the amount and vileness of the slander she's had to endure. That seems fair.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 25 September 2017 23:42 (six years ago) link
Every national Democratic figure, male or female, has been constantly slandered by the right-wing media machine since Jimmy Carter Truman died.
― El Tomboto, Monday, 25 September 2017 23:55 (six years ago) link
Every national Democratic figure, male or female, has been constantly slandered by the right-wing media machine since Jimmy Carter Truman died. Yalta.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 September 2017 00:03 (six years ago) link
if you vote for the Iraq War and Patriot Act you deserve no fucking sympathy and in fact the opposite
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 26 September 2017 00:13 (six years ago) link
yeah it's fair game then for people to call you a cunt and a murderess and whatnot. you'd fit right in at a Trump rally, Adam.
― Monster fatberg (Phil D.), Tuesday, 26 September 2017 01:34 (six years ago) link
hillary is bad. the people who use sexist language or stupid conspiratorial bullshit to attack her are also bad. this is not hard.
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Tuesday, 26 September 2017 01:41 (six years ago) link
Apparently it is!
― Monster fatberg (Phil D.), Tuesday, 26 September 2017 01:48 (six years ago) link