Hillary Clinton: Classic or Dud?

Sure. That's how he was able to successfully run against "the establishment." But part of the way he did that was by making a mockery of the whole election charade. And the way he did that was by becoming a human obscenity.

his most insidious trick was convincing people that the Secretary of State/Former First Lady was somehow "the establishment"

Well, she is - what Trump did was to call her out as part of "the establishment" while he, Donald Trump, was on your side against "them".

This worked as Clinton was imcompetent.

I mean, I don't think his supporters were serious about being against the establishment. They were annoyed at a culture they thought was leaving them behind and wanted to stick it to the people they held responsible, thinking it would have little consequence to themselves. If they wanted some kind of *political* alternative they wouldn't have supported someone so incoherent, who was radical only in his willingness to offend people and make a spectacle of himself.

The people who Trump said he would hurt the most were Muslims and Latinos, not the establishment.

Treeship continually otm itt

No he isn't.

Trump clearly talked about a jobs programme (I mean its not just a culture, left behind is a factory closing and a city becoming a ghost town), infrastructure development, about drugs that were ravaging the inner states. Trump is incoherent but his language is a lot more colourful than Hillary's technocratic babble and it cut through to people.

Racism was clearly a part of the picture but it wasn't all of it.

Racism (and sexism) was so much a part of the picture that splitting hairs about it doesn't make sense unless you want to tell yourself that America isn't as racist as it actually is.

I would argue it was both- we'll be talking about this election for the rest of our lives because it was a confluence of pretty much every major issue in 21st America, & seemingly opposing views- that HRC was too wonkish & specific, that she was too distance -that Trump was an incoherent demagogue, that Trump made plain, easy to understand statements- it's all true. EVERYTHING was a part of it.

Trump clearly talked about a jobs programme

ahahahahahhhhahaaahahahhahahhahaahh *dies*

Imho the elite incompetence most at fault was the invention of the electoral college

but that is baked into our half-assed experiment, as it were

Superdelegates

what really was behind trump's popularity was [something that supports my worldview]

I mean, it's clear that our toxic culture is the product of a predatory economic system, and the Republican party which has for decades been very efficient at redirecting economic anger against minorities and the elitist scolds who are said to advocate for them. This script was ready and waiting for Trump, he just decided to go further with it, to be more explicit. He's not a subtle guy.

I don't think people by and large believed in his jobs program deep down. I think they connected with the dystopian image of America he painted because they were comfortable pointing the finger at the familiar enemies.

Trump clearly talked

bullshit

Trump was not the right wing Sanders.

The "bringing jobs back" and all the rest of it was bullshit. He is no answer to anything, but his so-called programme was clearly answering the needs of many.

You can say sexism had to do with Hilary's loss but surely there were many racist attacks on Obama, and he won. Twice. No electoral college this or that.

Got no idea what HRC's excuse was. xps

I mean, it's clear that our toxic culture is the product of a predatory economic system, and the Republican party which has for decades been very efficient at redirecting economic anger against minorities and the elitist scolds who are said to advocate for them. This script was ready and waiting for Trump, he just decided to go further with it, to be more explicit. He's not a subtle guy.

I don't think people by and large believed in his jobs program deep down. I think they connected with the dystopian image of America he painted because they were comfortable pointing the finger at the familiar enemies.

You fundamentally misunderstand the way this country works.

The "predatory economic system" we have inherited was borne out of slavery. Economic anger against minorities, particularly black people, is built into it and doesn't need active encouragement. This isn't something that was invented by and nurtured by the Republicans; this is an integral part of America's DNA, going back before the country declared its independence. Any analysis that doesn't start directly from that premise and take that into account erases the reality of the American experience for African-Americans at the very least, if not every minority group that has come to this country, and is incomplete/invalid.

strictly speaking slavery was an invention of that predatory system and not the other way around but otherwise I agree

I don't think people by and large believed in his jobs program deep down.

I think you'd be surprised how far anyone promising tiny, incremental changes to their material conditions will go with people.

You can say sexism had to do with Hilary's loss but surely there were many racist attacks on Obama, and he won. Twice. No electoral college this or that.

Obama was a superlative candidate. There were racist attacks against him but, in both elections, his Republican rivals repudiated them, which I theorize led to suppressed voter turnout for their side. Trump played up every vile attack that was slung against Clinton, from the sexist to the racist-by-proxy, and increased his voter turnout. Also, Republicans gerrymandered districts in their favor to warp the electorate in their favor during Obama's presidency AND worked to disenfrachise voting demographics that were not breaking their way; I would argue strongly that Clinton's faults combined with Trump's faults actually being a motivating factor to the worst people on Earth combined with voter suppression combined with the baseline shithole that makes up America's moral compass is what has led us to this point.

xyzzzz is a silly person with no insights into America guys, don't bother

Because let's be fucking frank; Donald Trump is not qualified to be President. He should not have made it out of the primaries. He is still a fucking joke. That part is not Hillary Clinton's fault; there were what, 16 people in the Republican primaries, and none of them could Trump? People sussed out pretty quickly that Carson and Fiorina were not qualified; how did Trump climb to the top of that hill over Kasich, Rubio, Bush, Cruz, et al? It wasn't because Hillary Clinton ran a terrible campaign.

Shakey don't you have a white supremacist's 1st amendment rights to protect somewhere. Off you go. xp

there it is

Is your endgame here to gather woke points off of the most facile, simpleminded criticism?

Your contribution is a bullshit attack - did you expect a hug? xp

you are a worse clown on US politics threads than Frederik, who at least makes an earnest attempt at understanding US political systems, norms and history

xps

There's a mention in one of the excerpts of that gaggle of goons being "talented" and honestly I don't see it. Literally the only upside of the campaign was watching the meager "best" the Republican establishment had to offer get absolutely demolished by a complete moron. (Though I would argue that even as little as a year ago, Trump seemed to be a *little* sharper/more present than he is now.)

but that is baked into our half-assed experiment, as it were

By the elites!

As was slavery. What has been baked in can be baked out.

NB: Slavery is worse than undemocratic election mechanisms.

Juli0zzzzz being rong is all worth it for getting to watch DJP destroy imho

There is no endgame, as such. Treeship was making a few points that I felt weren't right and I was putting across a few other things in return.

Trump crushed other Repubs because the only political underpinning of most Americans is "all politicians are awful milquetoast double-talkers who are afraid to say THE TRUTH out of fear of offending anyone"

the thing about that is it's largely correct

Yeah most Americans also believe in gravity and that you eat food with your mouth

Being President isn't a job that you are qualified for, as such. That's why the clown has a shot, and in this case has got the job.

There's a mention in one of the excerpts of that gaggle of goons being "talented" and honestly I don't see it. Literally the only upside of the campaign was watching the meager "best" the Republican establishment had to offer get absolutely demolished by a complete moron. (Though I would argue that even as little as a year ago, Trump seemed to be a *little* sharper/more present than he is now.)

I'm not even thinking about the book at this point; I actually forgot what thread I was on and what everyone was arguing/talking about.

I agree that the only person in that entire group who seemed even halfway ready for the presidency was Kasich, whom I hated, but my point was more that it seems the Republican establishment, who didn't want Trump either, is getting a gigantic pass here when people lay the blame for Trump's presidency at Clinton's feet. He tore through a large number of people to get there AND was actively chosen by a significant section of the electorate, which tells you a) there was a perfect storm quality to this that felt like it should have been stoppable at any moment but no one was able to pull the trigger; Clinton was the final domino but not the only one and heaping all of the scorn on her is wrong; b) half of the active American electorate who were able to get to the polls think an unqualified racist, sexist moron would make a better President than a mouthy professional who has, at worst, been competent in every high-profile job she has attained.

Yeah most Americans also believe in gravity and that you eat food with your mouth

gravity is just a socialist plot to keep white working class Americans down iirc

xp

I would so rather have seen Trump vs. Bernie debates just for the expressions and overall haranguing

yeah it just sucks that when the temper-tantrum response to "the establishment" finally reached a boiling point, the person who reaped the rewards wasn't, say, Ross Perot but instead this...thing we call Trump (not like Perot was great or anything, but in comparison to DT...)

who has, at worst, been competent in every high-profile job she has attained.

Yemen and Haiti would like a word

You can do that trick with literally every Secretary of State since WW2. You can almost do it by spinning a globe with your eyes closed.

iow "sticking it to the establishment" superceded all other considerations. Satan for Prez cause hey at least he's not a typical politician. Temper tantrum voting.

You can do that trick with literally every Secretary of State since WW2

Cool, still sucks shit.

Hilary might be competent, but was there any kind of vision? She seemed to offer few things to vote for.

Besides not being Donald Trump.

i think unfortunately w/most elections since TV came about is the one who comes off as more of a stiff, no matter how qualified, is never going to come out on top against the more charismatic candidate. even if the candidate is a racist, really dumb, incurious, unstable, foggy-brained moron. in this case though i think the latter qualities were, as mentioned before, positives for lots of horrible people.

how are you jokers still doing this

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

trolled by a Britishes

xp