someone like djp will probably show up and school me on my (mis)use of music terms
― the late great, Sunday, 20 August 2017 17:25 (six years ago) link
Yeah I should have been clear that I was referencing IDM all up rather than specifically Aphex Twin who mostly certainly has some memorable melodies and very exciting work. But he also has a ton of the kind of IDM-like compositions in his catalog (especially the releases since he's returned to public presence) that fit the bill of the stuff I don't enjoy at all.
imo comparing autechre / aphex / BoC is a three-way apples to oranges thing, they're each quite distinct
Agreed. I was just suggesting that BoC is what I put on way more than the other two. ;)
― yesca, Sunday, 20 August 2017 17:41 (six years ago) link
there is so much bad IDM!
i hate the word IDM by the way and have stopped using the term. now i call everything "electronica".
― the late great, Sunday, 20 August 2017 17:44 (six years ago) link
It's always been one of the worst genre names. I mean, just think about what it means: not only is it pretentious and judgmental, it also backfires because anyone who says "I want some INTELLIGENT dance music" is probably someone you would never, ever want to party with. :D
This said, everyone hates Electronica, Progressive House, Chillwave, and just about any other name you can think of so IDM isn't exactly unique but the class distinction built into the term elevates into the need fop a special level of derision.
― yesca, Sunday, 20 August 2017 17:49 (six years ago) link
i like electronica because 1) it's corny as hell and funny to use and 2) it is at least accurate in describing the common thread (electronic instruments) and 3) makes clear the connection to exotica and other hi fi music (inventive production, emphasis on mood, designed for listening and contemplation rather than dancing or singing along to)
― the late great, Sunday, 20 August 2017 17:56 (six years ago) link
i realize w/ #3 that i'm kind of out on a limb
and i use exotica v loosely (i would call, say, delia derbyshire and pierre henry a type of "exotica")
― the late great, Sunday, 20 August 2017 17:57 (six years ago) link
I also love "electronica" as a genre name. Agree with IDM, chillwave and almost every genre that has -core or -step suffix
― dance cum rituals (Moka), Sunday, 20 August 2017 19:12 (six years ago) link
Plone had great melodies but yeah they were more in tune with exotica/library music than IDM
― Week of Wonders (Ross), Sunday, 20 August 2017 19:13 (six years ago) link
I love Plone.
Anyway ... there have been times in my life where I'd have said Autechre were my "favourite band" and I have lots of time for Aphex, too. If I was told I could only listen to one of Boards/Aphex/Autechre ever again, it would be Boards, though.
― djh, Sunday, 20 August 2017 19:39 (six years ago) link
I'm a sentimental guy and BoC is definitely a sentimental band so they'll always be my favorites. But apples and pears really
― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Sunday, 20 August 2017 20:04 (six years ago) link
Objectively? Bullshit.
― Hey Bob (Scik Mouthy), domingo 20 de agosto de 2017 8:06 (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yeah I know music is subjective not objective yadda yadda I was tired and I fucked up I meant to say that GEOGADDI seems to be the consensus pick. I personally think In a beautiful place is their best one but it's an EP so I guess it doesn't count. MHTRTC is my favorite LP of them.
― dance cum rituals (Moka), Monday, 21 August 2017 06:41 (six years ago) link
EPs should count as best albums iMO
― Week of Wonders (Ross), Monday, 21 August 2017 06:43 (six years ago) link
Rhythm in Autechre's music plays the same role that melody does for most other artists. That's why they are special to me. BOC are unique because they create emotion with texture, maybe.
― attention vampire (MatthewK), Monday, 21 August 2017 08:15 (six years ago) link
Not being 'funny', but it's kind of amusing that we're still discussing IDM vs house/techno and also moaning about the term 'IDM' in a 2017 thread. 'IDM' is like the Godwin's Law of electronic music discussion. Once invoked, it's a rabbithole you can't back out of.
But whatever, I'll bite:
The case for 'IDM': - Yes, it's a gross term and comes with way too many trappings - That said, yes, all genre terms are shit. 'EDM' might not be so haughty but 'Electronic Dance Music' to describe a very specific brand of US-centric turn-of-the-decade brostep/bro-house crossover is also ridiculous - For better or worse, there is often a need to distinguish between the kind of music made by Autechre/Aphex/BoC and co, and say the Prodigy, Todd Terje, Royksopp, Air, Rusko, Deadmaus or whoever, all of whom could be described as 'electronica' or 'electronic music' - Therefore, for better or worse, I use the term 'IDM'. It is bollocks, but it's the commonly recognised (if not the commonly agreed) term
As for IDM vs house - I came to the latter from the former. I didn't understand 'regular' dance music because I came from a rock background and didn't enjoy clubs or dancing very much. But as 'home listening' music, the Warp Records stuff was what opened my eyes to the possibilities of electronic music beyond the dancefloor. The melodic element was a big part of that, but mostly it was the ideas. Each track had some sort of central 'hook', or more often a gimmick (a rhythm that sounds like a bouncing ball for example), and that's what I liked. I also liked how, especially in the case of Autechre, it often sounded like aliens or machines trying to communicate emotions that only they could feel, that human beings would have difficulty understanding, and therefore you'd have to meet them halfway. In essence, you had to 'work' a bit to get the most out of it.
Later in my life I started going to decent clubs and parties and discovered dance music, largely through techno, electro and minimal house, finding out that this music could be just as sophisticated and emotional as anything by Autechre or Aphex, but in quite a different way. It was more indulgent in that this music wasn't designed to make you do mental gymnastics. It was still 'intelligent' in its design; still brimming with cool ideas, but this was more in the way it tapped into the psychology of the dancefloor, in the way it worked for DJs and dancers. I don't want to use the word 'spoon-feeding' here, but ultimately club-style dance music comes to the listener and the listener meets it back through her emotional and physical response. IDM rewards deep listening - it usually doesn't work that well as a backdrop. As I say, you have to channel a certain amount of your concentration in order to get the most from it.
So perhaps 'Intelligent Dance Music' isn't such a misnomer, in that it relates to the active mental response required by IDM listener as opposed to a passive physical response typically desired by a house dancer.
― Shat Parp (dog latin), Monday, 21 August 2017 09:23 (six years ago) link
Great post
― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Monday, 21 August 2017 11:25 (six years ago) link
Generally OTM but - Each track had some sort of central 'hook', or more often a gimmick (a rhythm that sounds like a bouncing ball for example) I not sure this is true at all. What are some other examples?
― chap, Monday, 21 August 2017 11:28 (six years ago) link
*I'm not sure
Maybe not EACH track, but very often there's a clear central device or concept to the best IDM tracks. For me, peak IDM was when composers worked a bit like writers of short stories, asking themselves 'What if...?' and executing the results in just a short space of time.
Autechre and Aphex were especially good at this. Here are just a handful off the top of my head:
Autechre - Vose In: Squelchy harmonic pads fading in and out like someone turning the volume knob up and down really fastAutechre - Fold4, Wrap5: Time is like water in a bucketAphex - Nannou: An impossible musical boxAphex - Milkman: A 'proper song', and a rude one at thatSquarepusher - Cooper's World: A funky, chase-scene pasticheAutechre - Arch Carrier: what if Knightrider, but with a an epic string quartet?Aphex - Alberto Balsalm: 'Bet this wooden chair makes a cool noise. Oh wait, it does!'Boards of Canada - Aquarius: 'Now I want you to count for me while I drill into your frontal lobe'Aphex - 4: 'Richard?' 'Yeah'Mu-Ziq - The Hwicci Song: Ravel goes big beatAphex - Ventolin: 'Now you know how much asthma sucks'Aphex - Logon Rock Witch: Trapped in the toy cupboard
There's quite a wide remit here. In some cases it's just a sample or a strange noise that disrupts the track and makes it unique ('ROYGBIV', '4') It could be the pastiching of a genre ('Red Hot Car, 'Windowlicker') for the length of one track, to signify (ir)reverence to that genre or play about with its parameters. Or speaking of parameters, in the case of Autechre it's an interesting algorithm that shows a through line from the idea to the execution (a lot of stuff around the LP5 / EP7 era does this).
― Shat Parp (dog latin), Monday, 21 August 2017 12:49 (six years ago) link
I dunno seems like you're taking vibes or images the tracks give you and reading those as 'gimmicks', which is not a way I've ever interpreted this music! The playfulness is cool, but with the best 'IDM' artists it's always subservient to a greater (often quite serious) vision and not the raison d'etre of the tunes.
― chap, Monday, 21 August 2017 13:21 (six years ago) link
"IDM" is like "prog", you could write a book about why the term is dumb and pretentious but if you describe something as "IDM" I have a good idea of what it'll sound like already which is all a genre label needs to do
― frogbs, Monday, 21 August 2017 13:28 (six years ago) link
i dunno if Aphex had a big, serious vision. felt more like his tracks were self-contained ideas, or at least until more recently where he seems to have collated his 'style' into something more cohesive (which is where I started losing interest). Seems to have happened to a lot of these acts - BoC being a case in point where the last two albums seem to go for a more sustained mood with few great shifts in style between tracks. Maybe that's a subjective perception, but I never thought of IDM as a set 'sound' (like electro or trance) and more an electronic genre in its own right, quite apart from (but still clearly influenced by) dance-music. I couldn't tell you what IDM sounds like, it's more the functionality behind it, in that one would treat it more as a form of art-rock or art-pop than a dance subgenre
― Shat Parp (dog latin), Monday, 21 August 2017 13:33 (six years ago) link
The label 'home listening electronica' was proposed as an alternative to 'IDM' but that's just a cumbersome, and I've listened to IDM stuff outside of a domestic setting. I've seen it performed live and in clubs etc (and likewise I've listened to dance music at home, while walking around etc), so that's not quite right, although 'home listening electronica' gets closer to the essential difference between IDM and dance music
― Shat Parp (dog latin), Monday, 21 August 2017 13:37 (six years ago) link
Oh, there's a very definite set of 'sounds' I associate with IDM. It has wider parameters than most other electronic genres, by its very nature, but its producers have more in common stylistically than just a spirit of experimentation or whatever.
― chap, Monday, 21 August 2017 13:42 (six years ago) link
disagree!
― the late great, Monday, 21 August 2017 14:45 (six years ago) link
yeah, i have to say i disagree too. Boards of Canada don't sound like Kid606 doesn't sound like Plaid don't sound like Two Lone Swordsmen, all of whom I associate with IDM to one extent or another. I Think one of the reasons the genre started to flag a bit c2003 was that a glut of producers had started to do precisely this by mimicking their heroes and forebears and making music that sounded generically 'IDM'; kind of in the same way Nickelback and Puddle of Mudd took all the hallmarks of grunge and mashed them together into something 'grunge-sounding' but beige and not half as interesting as Nirvana or Pearl Jam or Alice In Chains, all of whom sounded pretty distinct from each other.
― Shat Parp (dog latin), Monday, 21 August 2017 14:59 (six years ago) link
i disagree w some of what you said too but yr posts were essay length and i don't have time for detailed response rn
― the late great, Monday, 21 August 2017 16:31 (six years ago) link
soon though i promise
;-)
― the late great, Monday, 21 August 2017 16:36 (six years ago) link
i'm not gonna post a rebuttal because obviously a lot of it is personal but i approach it in a different way
― the late great, Monday, 21 August 2017 16:37 (six years ago) link
what's funny is i think of FSOL as totally "electronica" rather than IDM, although you just know they would rather ppl labeled them the latter hahaha
― brimstead, Monday, 21 August 2017 23:35 (six years ago) link
For better or worse, there is often a need to distinguish between the kind of music made by Autechre/Aphex/BoC and co, and say the Prodigy, Todd Terje, Royksopp, Air, Rusko, Deadmaus or whoever, all of whom could be described as 'electronica' or 'electronic music'
... why? especially when we've already established that autechre, boards and aphex don't have much in common except label and fans?
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:45 (six years ago) link
wouldn't it be more accurate to say there is a continuum of electronica, w/ artists like prodigy, royksopp, air, terje, autechre, aphex, BoC at different points?
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:46 (six years ago) link
Each track had some sort of central 'hook', or more often a gimmick
this is why i like comparing electronica to exotica or other hi fi novelty music
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:47 (six years ago) link
It was more indulgent in that this music wasn't designed to make you do mental gymnastics. It was still 'intelligent' in its design; still brimming with cool ideas, but this was more in the way it tapped into the psychology of the dancefloor, in the way it worked for DJs and dancers. I don't want to use the word 'spoon-feeding' here, but ultimately club-style dance music comes to the listener and the listener meets it back through her emotional and physical response. IDM rewards deep listening - it usually doesn't work that well as a backdrop. As I say, you have to channel a certain amount of your concentration in order to get the most from it.
ok i'm not trying to flame you here but we're largely having the same discussions about IDM because you're still saying some silly stuff i thought we'd moved past
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:49 (six years ago) link
club-style dance music comes to the listener and the listener meets it back through her emotional and physical response.
well you can't have it both ways. the music can't come to the listener AND the listener meet it back
IDM rewards deep listening - it usually doesn't work that well as a backdrop.
i don't know wtf u are doing in the club but when i am dancing i am way more attuned to the music than when i put on autechre in the background. as tim finney used to say, the dancer listens w every muscle in their body
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:50 (six years ago) link
It was more indulgent in that this music wasn't designed to make you do mental gymnastics.
why is music that forces you to do physical and spiritual gymnastics more indulgent than music designed to make you do mental gymnastics?
also why are we even privileging the idea of any sort of gymnastics here? since when was music about doing taste gymnastics? and why NOT be indulgent when listening to music? isn't it a sensual pleasure? or is it just a masochistic test of who can do the most rigorous mental gymnastics in reaction to a sound? (just remembered we're on ILM so don't answer that)
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:53 (six years ago) link
As I say, you have to channel a certain amount of your concentration in order to get the most from it.
also i forget that europeans don't actually dance
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:55 (six years ago) link
before you flame me back I'VE WATCHED BOILER ROOM all you all do is bop aimlessly in place
active mental response required by IDM listener as opposed to a passive physical response typically desired by a house dancer.
active mental vs passive physical
sigh
NERD ALERT
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:56 (six years ago) link
It could be the pastiching of a genre ('Red Hot Car, 'Windowlicker') for the length of one track, to signify (ir)reverence to that genre or play about with its parameters.
which is something that music producers of all genres have been doing forever in all sorts of music (pick a genre if you want examples)
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:57 (six years ago) link
The label 'home listening electronica' was proposed as an alternative to 'IDM' but that's just a cumbersome
i am surprised you have a problem w/ more words as opposed to fewer
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:58 (six years ago) link
. I couldn't tell you what IDM sounds like, it's more the functionality behind it, in that one would treat it more as a form of art-rock or art-pop than a dance subgenre
now this i actually agree w/ which is why i am so surprised that you would draw a sharp dividing line between, say, BoC and Air
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 04:59 (six years ago) link
Yeah, definitely not feeling this mind-body dichotomizing of electronic musics.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 05:00 (six years ago) link
For me, peak IDM was when composers worked a bit like writers of short stories, asking themselves 'What if...?' and executing the results in just a short space of time.
this is gross and unmusical
― j., Tuesday, 22 August 2017 05:01 (six years ago) link
But also yes to the idea of defining the difference by their respective *functions*. I think that's fair. Just as chamber music has different characteristics from orchestral music, because one is designed to be listened to in a chamber and the other in a concert hall, so house music and IDM are going to have different characteristics because one is designed for the club and the other is for headphones, although of course there is going to be blurring and overlap. And there is IDM that's stupid as shit, and house that's smart as shit.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 05:03 (six years ago) link
I couldn't tell you what IDM sounds like, it's more the functionality behind it, in that one would treat it more as a form of art-rock or art-pop than a dance subgenre
I've seen it performed live and in clubs etc (and likewise I've listened to dance music at home, while walking around etc),
ok so here you contradict yourself by first making it about the author's intention and then making it about the reader's response, you have to pick one or accept that both are insufficient to draw genre lines
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 05:04 (six years ago) link
i'm totally against using intention or use to put music in categories, it just creates social hierarchies and turns criticism into faux sociology
i'd rather focus on formal properties
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 05:07 (six years ago) link
which is partly because i don't know a whole lot about formal properties of music so it frees me from the pressure to interpret while also focusing me back on appreciating the actual music rather than judging the scene / culture / listeners that produced the music
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 05:09 (six years ago) link
sorry DL i guess i did end up doing a rebuttal
nothing personal, please forgive my playful digs
― the late great, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 05:10 (six years ago) link
this is pretty much my relationship with all things on earth. it's pretty cool except the part where no one takes you seriously about anything (not a sick burn, i'm right there with you). and even the warm feeling of appreciating the actual music in a primordial way eventually runs into problems because there will be some professor of Appreciating music in a Casual Way, phd that knows how to express their casual appreciation in a way that cannot be responded to on the same level
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 05:23 (six years ago) link